This is what my rebuilt 6-bolt consists of - Page 2

slowbubblecar · 05-31-2005

How doesn't it work if it has been done right?

BKs50trimGST · 05-31-2005

this is a conversation beween rick shindley and cummins off of yahoogroups.com since i suck at typing here is exactly what happened to my freaking car! Sorry if this post is really long - BTW - cummins bad mouthed Shindley about tuning - just a warning for you.

Mr. Cummings:

I tuned Brian's car and that act alone did not destroy his motor. His
car has a 5-knob SAFC, EGT and an annoying a/f meter. It's very easy
to tune a car with those items, and I did. It took just ten minutes.

I have street tuned cars for years and have had no trouble doing so.
It's more difficult to do than tuning on a dyno, but I don't have a
dyno and I am willing to take the time. I am pretty good at it,
actually. It's not that difficult if you know what you are doing. I
understand that many do not know or trust themselves to do it and
that's fine. I do know what I am doing so it's not a problem for me.
For you to assume otherwise is an affront to me.

Brian initially towed his car to me with a used (E-bay) 50-trim
partially installed. It required the addition of the oil return tube,
that was it, that and the installation of a Quaiffe.

The E-bay 50-trim turbo he mounted on the engine was no good. It
dumped oil into the exhaust and intake immediately upon startup. The
turbo was junk. Brian then bought a new 50-trim and had it
drop-shipped to me for installation. I then took the car out and
tuned it up on the street. Like I said, that took about 10 minutes.

All the time I was tuning the car there was some oil smoke coming from
the exhaust. I attributed that to the former turbo dumping oil into
the intake and/or exhaust for the few minutes it ran on the car. I
figured the smoke would stop soon enough. I didn't drive the car long
enough to see that happen, however.

Brian picked up the car and off he went. I had managed to put maybe
ten miles on it before he took it. I live in Big Lake and he managed
to get into two Honda races with his new turbo and Quaiffe on his way
back to Minnetonka. After those races he called me and said he saw
smoke coming from the exhaust. I said it was probably the left over
oil from the bad 50-trim. It seemed the correct analysis since the
turbo was new.

The next day he was driving the car when the engine seized! The car
was towed to me for inspection and I found the #3 rod bearing spun.

I built up a nice 1G engine with a 2G oil pump (so no need for
DSMLink) for it and have it running now. The new 50-trim is on it and
there is much smoke coming from the exhaust!!! I drove the car to get
some gas and the smoke only got worse. After just five miles round
trip to the gas station I found the new 50-trim to be dumping oil into
the intake! What's more, the turbo now has more shaft play, including
in and out (not good), and the compressor wheel is hitting the turbo
housing and making fine aluminum particles to mix with the oil it
spits into the intake! This from a new turbo with just 80 miles on it!

FYI: the turbo oil feed line is new from RRE and intended for the
purpose. The oil supply is from the 2G oil filter housing (where the
stock turbo is fed from). The oil return tube is comprised of an
aftermarket flange and brass 30 degree elbow directly at the bottom of
the turbo, then a 3/4" hose from there to the oil pan, where the hose
connects to what's left of the stock oil return tube. There is no
restriction nor is the oil supply from an unfiltered source. In short,
the turbo failed and I do not know why. It is unusual for a new turbo
to dump oil like this one does, but I have seen it just once before in
the last number of years I have been working on DSMs. I know it can
happen but it just is rare. Still, that's what we have here; a new
turbo that dumps oil into the intake for burning!

I do not know the history of the old motor before it arrived. It ran
strong and made no rod knocking sounds when I drove it for those ten
minutes to tune it. EGTs were cool; nowhere near 1450 at WOT. (I
tuned it that way (conservatively) so the young man wouldn't melt his
motor!) Boost was limited to 17 psi, my favorite number. The only
thing I noted was some oil smoke, like I said, and I attributed that
to the E-bay 50-trim.

So, if after this review of that car's recent history you can still
attribute the rod bearing failure to my tuning the old SAFC on the
street then I would like to meet with you for a "private
consultation." You apparently have a great deal to offer on the
subject of tuning DSMs that you have, until now, kept hidden.

And I hear you can also explain how a sheep's bladder can be used to
predict earthquakes! You truly have an amazing intellect!

Rick
(Dynoless in Big Lake)

slowbubblecar · 05-31-2005

[QUOTE=BKs50trimGST]
I built up a nice 1G engine with a 2G oil pump (so no need for
DSMLink) for it and have it running now. [QUOTE=BKs50trimGST]

How does the 2g oil pump make it so you don't need dsmlink? I don't know too much but I have never heard that before. He must be talking about making it start and run, not for tuning.

BKs50trimGST · 05-31-2005

one more thing from yahoogroups - from shindley/raptor

Shindley post:
The RRE feedline on this car is fine. It has no kinks. It is not the
cause of the turbo's demise. The turbo may have had a piece of foam
plastic stuffed inside the oil supply hole, I don't know. Nothing was
apprent when I installed it. Shaft play was normal and the shaft
rotated freely. It's just that ont he forst drive down the road the
car began emitting a lot of smoke, which got worse as the miles went by.

I intalled a big 16G last year that did the same thing. Brand new out
of the box and it pumped oil directly into the intake and exhaust.

The owner of this 50-trim got it through Elite. Elite saw to it that
the turbo was drop-shipped to my door (thank you, Mo!). Now they are
helping the owner get warranty service on the turbo. Elite is helping
the guy big time in his hour of need. It's nice of them.

The owner told me that Elite has seen a couple of turbos do the same
thing after they installed them. If you so enough of these installs
you will see an occassional failure. This is the second one I have
seen in a few years. In the "other failure", repalcing the turbo
fixed the problem. The oil feedline (an RRE feedline, too) remained.

Basically, turbos can fail out of the box. It's not a common thing,
but it does happen. No biggie.

Raptor/Mike at QPR post:
I will throw my .02 into this as maybe it will make sense. The effect
of the being burnt does nothing, the lack of that oil to the engine
since it is now making its way out the exhaust is the problem. Oil
starvation will cause bearings to spin. I have a nice crispy 7 bolt
rod on the wall from a very similar situation a couple years ago.
Someone failed a turbo install, the oil didn't go back to the motor
and in about 30 miles, a bearing spun from starvation. We got to
assess the damage and fix it. The other thing that should be said is
that knock and detonation can cause extreme engine damage, however,
they will not cause a spun bearing directly. I don't believe in tuning
on the street without decent logging capabilities, but I don't believe
that was the problem in this case. This isn't to take anyones side,
just my opinion for what it's worth.

BKs50trimGST · 05-31-2005

i believe he meant 1g engine with a 2g CAS, he didn't mean oil pump - i think that's what he meant by it, don't quote me on it though.

slowbubblecar · 05-31-2005

He must have meant he used the 2g cas and crank sensor. If you use a 1g cas, you need to invert the cas with dsmlink and swap plug wires.

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 05-31-2005

God, this is the blind leading the blind fighting the blind in this thread.

The 1G CAS on 2G is known to have problems on a lot of cars without DSMLink.

People used to modify the oil pump case when they did a 6-bolt in a 2G, before the wiring tricks were figured out. Anyone who has been into DSMs for more than 2 years knows of the old way.

BKs50trimGST · 05-31-2005

ecoli, i just pm'ed u, reply to me if you can, thanks

AJ · 05-31-2005

<----- About to completly lose it!

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 05-31-2005

I don't understand how a bad turbo spins a rod bearing though. A bad motor can definately take out a turbo though. Turbos don't last very long with dirt or bearing material in the oil. Dirt in the oil is the #1 cause of spun rod bearing and new turbo failure.

Raptor · 05-31-2005

This thread is pretty rediculous overall. The same info was asked and answered on the old engines demise in the other thread. using the 7 bolt front case/pump on a 6 bolt requires modification and use of the 7 bolt pan etc, all so you can run the crank sensor. We don't do it simply because we havn't had a problem with the random misfire issue on any of the 6 bolt swaps we have done without DSMLink and until there is a problem for us using the 1G CAS, that is the method we will continue to use. This thread needs to die.

LightningGSX · 05-31-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowbubblecar

You didn't use a 1g cas? Why wouldn't you just use a 1g cas. I have never heard of anyone swapping a 6 bolt in and using the 2g cam and crank sensors. Why did he need to modify the front case other than the bs elim?

The 2g crank trigger is much better than the 1g setup.In the 1gs, spark is triggered off the cam, and as the timing belt stretches at high RPMs, it throws off the calculated ignition advance.Spark triggered off the crank position sensor(as it is in 2gs) is a much more accurate way.

EDIT:I'm pretty sure its the timing belt thats causes the random misfire code as well