Dave's Evo X Build/The Life of Dave blog - Page 121

**Tachyon** · 02-01-2013

That's a fucking beast mode powerband, Dave.

What size motor was that on?

**Murlo26** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachyon

That's a fucking beast mode powerband, Dave.

What size motor was that on?

Sleeved 2.0L and stock compression, I could be looking at sub 4k spool on my setup. I really really don't want to touch my setup, but this powerband is beast mode for sure, I know of several other people switching to this already now just because of this guys' success. They were having boost holding issues with the twin 38mm wg's as they were the single springs. They are going to try 35psi when they get new springs. No crazy mivec or timing on this either, e85 though.

The guy with this graph is going for the X HP record right now and bringing the car to TX2013 or whatever the texas thing is called.

**Halon** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodhart

Leave it alone!!!

Amen. You will put yourself in the poor house quick trying to keep up with the Jones'. There's always something newer, better, etc coming out. Just focus on perfecting your setup, touching things that you haven't already touched.

What is different on your car that would allow you to reach the same boost level at less RPM than that one?

Edit: Ah just saw in your sig you are 2.2L.

**Murlo26** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon

Amen. You will put yourself in the poor house quick trying to keep up with the Jones'. There's always something newer, better, etc coming out. Just focus on perfecting your setup, touching things that you haven't already touched.

What is different on your car that would allow you to reach the same boost level at less RPM than that one?

Edit: Ah just saw in your sig you are 2.2L.

Yep, 2.2L, from what I have seen the overbore is good for 400-500rpms of spool and making 8-12% more power at the same boost and then even a bit more power at the same boost with bumped compression.

I am not really trying to "keep up" with anyone at all. Just looking at the next step for improving my car. This is a slam dunk if I really want the whole big time turbo setup. But realistically its prolly not going to happen, not this year. Honestly, I just thought it was an AWESOME setup/powerband that got me giddy and wanted to share with everyone. Didn't seem worth making a whole thread for it. I have enough work on my current setup before I move up still.

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 02-01-2013

That twin scroll 6466 looks nice. I wonder if the 1.0 A/R exhaust housing would choke it at all at higher boost levels.

One thing though, even though it is fully spooled at 4000RPMs, it doesn't look like the motor is able able to due much with the air since the HP and TQ at 4000RPMs are nothing crazy even though it's spooled up.

**Halon** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane@DBPerformance

One thing though, even though it is fully spooled at 4000RPMs, it doesn't look like the motor is able able to due much with the air since the HP and TQ at 4000RPMs are nothing crazy even though it's spooled up.

This may sound like a newb question, but can anyone explain why this is, in layman's terms?

Guess I'm used to seeing the TQ line at least somewhat resemble the boost line, so this doesn't compute in my head. Usually I'm used to seeing when the boost line starts rising rapidly, so does the TQ line. Then when full boost is reached and the boost line tapers/flattens out, the TQ line isn't to far behind.

I think if I was going after a very fast spooling setup, and I managed to get a setup to spool as quickly as that one does, just to find out on the dyno that even though it spools fast it doesn't matter...

Random evo dyno charts as an example of what makes sense in my head:

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon

This may sound like a newb question, but can anyone explain why this is, in layman's terms?

The motor isn't big enough or efficient enough at that specific rpm to use the air.

People always get all hyped about variable vane turbos, spool valves, or other tricks, so they can have the dream 1000whp turbo that spools at 1500rpms. But even if you get that to happen, it doesn't mean the car will make any power. That dyno chart seems to be a great example. It obviously hits full spool well before it starts making good power. That's not a bad thing, since it's probably decently responsive or at respooling at higher RPMs for a turbo that size. Maybe that Evo has cams and and intake manifold that give up low/mid range power for top end.

But anyways... Here is a helpful way to think about it. First off, a turbo is not like a roots style/positive displacement supercharger. It is not designed to make boost by stacking air and holding it it. A turbo makes boost inside the compressor housing and sends the air on it's way to the intercooler, engine, etc. So when you put a big turbo on a small motor and you get that turbo to spool really fast what happens? You get compressor surge. What is compressor surge? It is when the turbo puts out more air than the engine can take in and the air starts backing up and eventually backs all the way up to the turbo itself which causes the comp wheel to drastically slow down or stop(this is bad and very hard on a turbo). Compressor surge goes away as you go up in the RPMs because engine can finally use all that air. So what does an anti-surge/port shroud compressor housing do? It lets that excess air flow back out into the intake pipe in front of the turbo, so you are essentially just wasting some of the boost/air you worked so hard to build. It is also better to run a non-anti surge compressor housing if you don't need one, they usually make a little better power.

In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

**scheides** · 02-01-2013

don't forget to differentiate 'spool' vs 'boost threshold' ....I'm sure it might have a decent boost threshold (4000rpm) but stomping on the gas at 4000rpm will probably be a pretty different experience in your car with the ef4 vs that one.

**Kracka** · 02-01-2013

2.7L, do it!

93gtpeater · 02-01-2013

Dont change your set up. Leave the poor car alone and just drive it. If you want to throw money at something. Join halon cornfed and I in build a monster dsm for the track and the street.

**JET** · 02-01-2013

That engine is not efficient at the lower RPM & flow. This could be for many reasons, extremely ported head, really big cams, etc. You can tell it was built for high RPM as the power doesn't fall off at all up top.

**Halon** · 02-01-2013

So it's an engine thing, not a turbo thing, is what you're saying? The engine is full more or less (air-wise), it can't use or do anything more with any more air at that rpm range.

So with that being said, really any turbo setup would not make more power at that RPM range either, whether it be a stock turbo, EF2, etc. Because this is purely an engine thing, and the PTE is already packing it as full as it can get with air.

**Murlo26** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon

So it's an engine thing, not a turbo thing, is what you're saying? The engine is full more or less (air-wise), it can't use or do anything more with any more air at that rpm range.

So with that being said, really any turbo setup would not make more power at that RPM range either, whether it be a stock turbo, EF2, etc. Because this is purely an engine thing, and the PTE is already packing it as full as it can get with air.

That would make sense I guess as my EF4 could spool by like 3500 with mivec, but it just surged like crazy. I am guessing the PTE turbo's surge ports work a bit better than the EF4 ones which is why spool is so soon on this thing.

turbotalon1g · 02-01-2013

That is awesome, I say do it.
Is there anyone local making good power on a 6466? I haven't seen one outpower a 6266.

**scheides** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

That is awesome, I say do it.
Is there anyone local making good power on a 6466? I haven't seen one outpower a 6266.

There's a guy named Troy on evomn (and here) that had a 6266 fail, when it came back it was a 6466. The car made like 40whp more and spooled about 200rpm later. Pretty sweet

turbotalon1g · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides

There's a guy named Troy on evomn (and here) that had a 6266 fail, when it came back it was a 6466. The car made like 40whp more and spooled about 200rpm later. Pretty sweet

Same boost levels?

**Halon** · 02-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides

There's a guy...that had a 6266 fail

That's wierd...

**goodhart** · 02-02-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon

That's wierd...

2 of them actually. One lasted about 5 minutes of idling, the other about 500 miles of break in and >10 psi.

http://www.evomn.net/forums/showthre...466-comparison

MorningWood · 02-02-2013

Me and Josh are both making good power on the 6466's. My car still had a stock intake manifold, throttle body, and no porting on the head, it made 709whp at 38psi on RS's Mustang Dyno. Josh Made over 700 on Buschur's Mustang Dyno.

The reason the 6466's cost so much more is they only come in Ball Bearing, you can get the 62 and 67 in Journal Bearings hence the lower price on the site, when you get up to the Ball Bearing option for those turbo's they close in on price with the 64.

My 64 actually spooled the same as my 62 did, at 35psi it didnt really make much more power. but the 6266 quit making power on my set up at that level (615whp on Ron's Dyno) the 6466 started picking up good power around there so it must have been right in its efficiency range, I ended up being able to make 665whp with 39psi, then it slowed down on making power until I went from kelford 272's to GSC s3's where it made 709whp at 38psi

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 02-01-2013

You can get a 6266 or 6766 for half the cost of a 6466, so it's probably not going to be that commonly used.