Engine Rebuilding... a couple questions

[Thor06]

Hello everyone. As many of you know, I spun a bearing in my purple Talon and I am going to be rebuilding a motor to drop in this spring. Well, I have a couple questons regarding gaskets and bearings.

First off, gaskets. Is a gasket a gasket, or does brand matter? You can get a full no name gasket kit on eBay for like $60, a Topline set from SBR for $160, or a OEM Mitsu kit for $240. Would it really be advantageous to pay twice as much for Topline kit of four times as much for the Mitsu kit?

As for bearings, I am going to go with the Clevite 77 bearings, but on extremepsi they have two kinds, trimetal and aluminum. The mains are trimetal so I am going to get those, but its the rods bearings I was thinking about. They have trimetals for the 7 bolt rod bearings, but they only have aluminums for 6 bolt rod bearings. Are they going to be ok, or should I track down some trimetal rod bearings?

Oh, also what about rings? I got a good deal on some ross pistons, should I get Ross rings, or will any work? Is there any brand that is better than any others? Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

[niterydr]

Stay away from anything but Mitsu gaskets, the rest are just junk.
Clevites are junk, and the Aluminum's are passanger grade. I'd recommend ACL's or kings.
Rings, it really depends upon what you are looking for out of the vehicle. Most aftermarket rings are very good.

[Thor06]

Sounds good on the gaskets.

I've never heard anything but Clevites recommended, I am suprised to see someone talk negatively about them. So for the ACL's I would go with the tri-metal ones right?

I dont know what this car is going to see, worst case senario hopefully around 300whp, best case 500+ but I seriously doubt more than a hair over 500. Ideally, I am shooting for roughly 450 but thats a ways out if it happens at all. Should I just snag the cheapest aftermarket ones I can or what?

[Super Bleeder!!]

Does ACL even make a trimetal rod bearing? Back when i ordered mine i couldnt find them.

[JET]

I have ACL's in this engine too, Clevites are pretty poor quality. Kings are really good too. The ACL and Kings aren't hardly any more $$ than Clevites, talk to LSE about them.

[niterydr]

The ACL Race Series of bearings is Tri-Metal and is what we prefer to use in most of our applications (when available). You can also get them in std size with .001" more clearance, helps for oiling.

ACL also has a few other grades of bearings that I have seen other shops use and just say "ACL". I have never used these bearings and can-not comment on them, as we have done all the research on the ACL RACE series.
http://www.aclperformance.com.au/prod_e_bearings.htm

We also like to use the KING bearings. They do not offer a "race" series for the import motors at this time, but they feature a tri-metal design as well. Now before people get worried about the KING bearings, they are what I use in my car .

http://www.kingbearings.com/advantages.html

Our stage 1 motors come with Kings, stage 2 and up come with the ACL RACE series. The price is the same on both of them, so you can opt for one or the other, but they are the ONLY 2 bearings we will build motors with.
Another interesting fact, Toga bearings are just re-labled King's. We have figured that out on a few Nissan Motors.

If anyone needs engine bearings let me know. The Kings and ACL's go for right around $85 for a complete set of connecting rod, main, and thrust washer/thrust bearings. We've already done all of the hard work as far as research is conserned, just have us take care of you the entire way .

About Clevites...they were top of the line many years ago, and many people have refused to switch from them. We personally believe that the markets change for ALL products and are always trying to improve our product line. We refuse to get stuck in a rut when it comes to a perferred manufacture. When the Clevites started to show up with burrs everywhere and just looked like the tolerances have went to crap, we dropped them. (This was back in 2004).

[Thor06]

Ok, I think I am going to go with the ACL tri metal ones (and yes Joe, they do make them for 6 bolt rod bearings). I would rather over build it than underbuild it you know?

One question on the +.001 sizing though, wouldnt that make it more susceptible (spelling?) to spinning?

What about rings? Prefiled would be nice if they make them, if not or if they are overly expensive its not a big deal. Someone recommended a brand to me and I cant remember it for the life of me. All I remember is they dont make pistons (that I know of) and it seems the name was of a town in the midwest. I will try to remember that name.

Also, what about oil? I have heard soooo much about it all and everyone has a different opinion. I was going to go with some Royal Purple, but someone told me it "works too good" and the engine needs more friction to come up to the right operating temperature. Is there any merit in that statement? Is it true I can run the cheapest dino oil for the first couple oil changes of the break in since it wont be in there for long, or do I need to go with the same shit through and through? What about weight, the car wont see temps below probably like 50 degrees since its a summer cruise car, should I just stick with the 10W-30?

Speaking of break in, a DSM wiseman told me that of the engines he has broken in, the best way he did it was by semi-beating on it during the break in. What would you recommend for the break in?

Sorry to be bombarding you with questions, but I gotta get my mind right on this shit so when it comes time to do it, I know what I am doing you know? I think I am going to have to hit you up for a set of those bearings and rings, but probably not for a while. I still gotta rip the engine apart, buy a decent torque wrench and micrometer, and get machine work done before I can start building it. Anyway, I appreciate the help Swanny and everyone else.

[Kracka]

10W-30 is a good oil to use. Stay away from Royal Purple fluids though, their initial protection is good but their additive package breaks down VERY quickly. Do you want to run a full synthetic or not? I pesonally don't after reading all that I've read, but everyone has their preferences. Shell Rotella-T is a great conventional, but sometimes can be tough to find in 10W-30. Havoline is one of the top conventionals as is Motorcraft (both are very spendy though). My oil of choice is Chevron Supreme 10W-30; I run this in my S2000 and Laser and it shows great wear protection and long-life (UOA's prove this, I am not just stating my opinion). The reason I picked this oil is because of the quality (its one of the top conventionals) and the price ($.59/quart at Checker after MIR). Redline is among the best of the best synthetics, but its really expensive at ~$7-8/quart. Amsoil is another good one, but I hate all things that come out of Superior, WI so I will not recomend it. Mobil 1 is of course good, but I actually prefer Castrol Syntec since it shows better wear protection and doesn't run on the thin side of the viscosity rating like Mobil 1 does. Syntec is not a true synthetic though so it will not last as long as Mobil 1 will. The 3,000 mile oil change interval is a bunch of nonsense too. I keep my conventionals in for at least 4,000 miles on my cars or 5,000 miles on cars with "normal" engines (i.e. not boosted or reving out to 9k). I would not even consider changing out a synthetic on a DSM before 5k miles unless its a hardcore track beast. Personally, I'd probably do 7-8k miles on synthetic in a DSM but 10k+ would more than likely be perfectly safe.

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by Thor06

Ok, I think I am going to go with the ACL tri metal ones (and yes Joe, they do make them for 6 bolt rod bearings). I would rather over build it than underbuild it you know?

One question on the +.001 sizing though, wouldnt that make it more susceptible (spelling?) to spinning?

No. Spinning is when metal touches metal.

Originally Posted by Thor06

What about rings? Prefiled would be nice if they make them, if not or if they are overly expensive its not a big deal. Someone recommended a brand to me and I cant remember it for the life of me. All I remember is they dont make pistons (that I know of) and it seems the name was of a town in the midwest. I will try to remember that name.

No. Rings are always file fit. If you are not familiar with this process I would highly suggest having someone build your motor. Not all ring gaps are good, not all ring filers are the same, and not all rings are the same.

Originally Posted by Thor06

Also, what about oil? I have heard soooo much about it all and everyone has a different opinion. I was going to go with some Royal Purple, but someone told me it "works too good" and the engine needs more friction to come up to the right operating temperature. Is there any merit in that statement? Is it true I can run the cheapest dino oil for the first couple oil changes of the break in since it wont be in there for long, or do I need to go with the same shit through and through? What about weight, the car wont see temps below probably like 50 degrees since its a summer cruise car, should I just stick with the 10W-30?

We recommend and use Redline Oils for synthetic. Our motors get generic motor oil for initial break in, then switch out to synthetic on street motors at 500 miles. My motor got synthetic after 8 miles.

Originally Posted by Thor06

Speaking of break in, a DSM wiseman told me that of the engines he has broken in, the best way he did it was by semi-beating on it during the break in. What would you recommend for the break in?

Most aftermarket rings seat at idle. We break in all of our motors on the dyno using load/vac pulls. 10ish vaccumm pulls will usually seat all the rings, then its good to go. This is a very touchy subject for some, we do it our way, everyone has their own.
My motor was making 500+hp after 8 miles.

Originally Posted by Thor06

Sorry to be bombarding you with questions, but I gotta get my mind right on this shit so when it comes time to do it, I know what I am doing you know? I think I am going to have to hit you up for a set of those bearings and rings, but probably not for a while. I still gotta rip the engine apart, buy a decent torque wrench and micrometer, and get machine work done before I can start building it. Anyway, I appreciate the help Swanny and everyone else.

Not a problem, it is what I am here for.

[Kracka]

Valvoline MaxLife (conventional oil designed for cars with 75k+ miles) is a great break-in oil due to high moly content.

[Goat Blower]

I wouldn't use 10W-30 anything and especially not Mobil 1, it's too thin but will keep your oil pressure down a bit if you haven't ported your relief hole. Go with your favorite flavor of 20W-50 on DSM motors, your bearings will thank you. I personally don't use synthetic anymore, my car doesn't see enough miles in a year to warrant a change, it gets changed every fall for storage regardless of miles.

And Clevites are still one of the most popular bearings in domestic hp engines, just not as popular for imports anymore. They're not that bad, they just need a little clean-up and inspection before using them, which you should do with any bearings anyways. I've installed plenty of Clevites in high horse DSM motors and I've yet to have one fail. I have switched to a different brand for motors now though.

[Kracka]

Conventional oil begins to break down after about 6 months regardless of miles, synthetics are good for about a year.

[Thor06]

Such information, and dammit I am on break.

Chris, thanks for the oil info. I have heard that Royal Purple needed to be changed more often, and Amsoil and Redline were the others recommended. Unless someone can convince me not to use Mobil 1, I think thats what I will use since it is available up here in B Town where the Talon is and will be used.

I was under the impression that spinning occured from insufficient lubrication, causing the bearing to wear down and thus spin. Thats why I was confused about different sized bearings, thanks for setting that straight.

You are right, I am unfamiliar with rings and their filing. I have rebuilt a few lawn mower engines, it seems the gap between the ends of the rings was something we had to check and occasionally that gap was too small and we had to file it to the right gap. I know there is a direction and a specific way to put the rings in, and I would have known they were automatically fit right once I checked the gap. I just need to know what brand is best and whether or not they need to be checked/filed before I put them in.

Thats what Kevin (the DSM wiseman) told me too, he would give it a couple miles then do a bunch of boost/vac pulls, gradually increasing boost and he would switch to synthetic after the 500 mile oil. What intervals do you change the oil in?

Again, I appreciate all the help from everyone.

[tim]

Just buy rings from your piston manufacturer, any buy a ring filer from Summit. You will also need a set of feeler gauges.

It isnt hard to do, just take your time.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

The problem with doing hard breakin pulls on a turbo car is that it had better have a good tune in it to begin with or else you might damage the motor right away. Most cars don't have any boost, so even giving it enough load to get close to 0psi should be enough cylinder pressure. You want to do some long coast downs from mid RPM while in gear, that will pull a lot of vacuum and seat your rings in. If your rings aren't seated and you don't have full compression within 10-20 miles, then they probably won't ever get better.

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by ecoli

The problem with doing hard breakin pulls on a turbo car is that it had better have a good tune in it to begin with or else you might damage the motor right away. Most cars don't have any boost, so even giving it enough load to get close to 0psi should be enough cylinder pressure. You want to do some long coast downs from mid RPM while in gear, that will pull a lot of vacuum and seat your rings in. If your rings aren't seated and you don't have full compression within 10-20 miles, then they probably won't ever get better.

Exactly.
Do not hit boost, hince the term "vac" pulls. I usually rev a motor out to 2/3 its rev range and let it coast down to 2000rpm or so (usually end up doing 5000-2000rpm pulls).

[Goat Blower]

I usually break in my motors with a few full throttle runs and hit it with a 500-shot of NAWZ, works every time.

[Kracka]

Honda F20/22C engines are run WOT to redline before being dropped (lifted?) into the car.

There are so many different break-in techniques and everyone think's theirs is best. I'd personally follow the advice of your favorite trusted shop. Since LSE and DB agree it makes things pretty simple for you

[tjg]

I would use schaffers oil its one of the best oils out there, it has moly in it.

[Thor06]

Wow, thanks guys. I have searched and read for a long time and didnt even get close to that much useful info, thanks to all contributing members.

I have thought a lot about the tune. I am definately planning on having link and a few guages to keep an eye on shit from the time it first starts up. Think I should just run it on the stock tune from the get go, or is there a baseline tune I should use instead?

Thanks for clearing up the vac pull thing for me. So after the vac pulls do you guys just drive it like normal?

Whew, I am excited for this build. This poor car isnt going to fucking get done until about the summer I get out of school (I am a freshman now) but its going to be a fun road there. As much as I want to do this myself, I am starting to get nervous and if she blows again its either getting parked for a very long time or parted so I may have to just get it professionally done. I still gotta get the bitch out of the donor car though.