Proving Grounds 2012

[cmspaz]

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

Autos are about 3300+lbs so they are pretty damn close with the evos.

Why so fatty?

[scheides]

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

It's funny you guys think 1.79+ 60 fts are automagic I was cutting 1.68s -1.70s in my 5 spds all day even with the scm61.

I don't think anyonehas said that; I think 1.6 is about the benchmark for a street car (evo/dsm at least).

[turbotalon1g]

Originally Posted by cmspaz

Why so fatty?

Transmission is heavier, TCU, and tq converter. I've also heard that the wiring harness is even noticeably bigger/heavier than a 5 spd.

Originally Posted by scheides

I don't think anyonehas said that; I think 1.6 is about the benchmark for a street car (evo/dsm at least).

Everyone keeps hinting on the not having to drive the car, this is the only part I see where it has the major advantage, i guess I forgot how bad mitsu drivers really are.

[Halon]

My personal opinion. Stock appearing should be just that, stock appearing! Yes it's true Evo's will have an advantage when it comes to turbo size. Oh well, it is what it is. Pick your platform and deal with the pro's/con's of what you chose. I have a feeling even with the handicap of having to run smaller turbos, there will be some DSM's going pretty far. Last year Tachyon took 2nd in his 1G.

The only exceptions I can think of is 2G's being allowed to run TD05 size turbos. That's been the norm for quite some time so I think that should still apply. Also for exhaust manifolds. If you can pass it off as looking fairly stock, then you're good. Example would be an FP Cast manifold, with a heatshield applied in such a way that it really doesn't stick out, well then you're good. If you have a tubular manifold, well that's obviously not stock and usually sticks out, so unless you find a way to really hide that thing and make it not stand out, then that wouldn't fly if it were up to me. FMIC's on DSM's, my initial reaction is they sure didn't have them stock. So unless you found a clever way to really make it look like you don't have one, I don't see how that could pass as stock appearing. Did Tachyon have an FMIC when he took 2nd last year?


I also agree with Aaron and Carl. There shouldn't be such a large gap with the other classes. If someone is running a 50trim DSM, he can't run in stock appearing, so he's going to enter the 62mm and below group and not stand a chance. Make the stock appearing class an actual competitive class that truly is STOCK APPEARING. Then setup a couple other classes based on inducer size (<56mm, <62mm, <67mm)

[carltalon]

Originally Posted by Halon

My personal opinion. Stock appearing should be just that, stock appearing! Yes it's true Evo's will have an advantage when it comes to turbo size. Oh well, it is what it is. Pick your platform and deal with the pro's/con's of what you chose. I have a feeling even with the handicap of having to run smaller turbos, there will be some DSM's going pretty far. Last year Tachyon took 2nd in his 1G.

The only exceptions I can think of is 2G's being allowed to run TD05 size turbos. That's been the norm for quite some time so I think that should still apply. Also for exhaust manifolds. If you can pass it off as looking fairly stock, then you're good. Example would be an FP Cast manifold, with a heatshield applied in such a way that it really doesn't stick out, well then you're good. If you have a tubular manifold, well that's obviously not stock and usually sticks out, so unless you find a way to really hide that thing and make it not stand out, then that wouldn't fly if it were up to me. FMIC's on DSM's, my initial reaction is they sure didn't have them stock. So unless you found a clever way to really make it look like you don't have one, I don't see how that could pass as stock appearing. Did Tachyon have an FMIC when he took 2nd last year?


I also agree with Aaron and Carl. There shouldn't be such a large gap with the other classes. If someone is running a 50trim DSM, he can't run in stock appearing, so he's going to enter the 62mm and below group and not stand a chance. Make the stock appearing class an actual competitive class that truly is STOCK APPEARING. Then setup a couple other classes based on inducer size (<56mm, <62mm, <67mm)

I agree with everything Brandon said here. I think the real thing that is cool about a stock apearing class is to see how far people can push a car on close to stock components. If we alow tubular manifolds and SMIMs then what is really stock about the car. I personaly am going to set my car up the way I want and will run it in whatever class it fits into (which shold be stock apearing ). There will always be someone with better driveing ability, a bigger wallet or more time to put into there car that is going to beat me. So I just want to go and have a good time.

[bramagedained]

So I can't just wrap my tubular manifold in foil and call it a stock appearing manifold?

[turbotalon1g]

That is why they could choose to call it stock appearing TURBO class instead then it would only have to be a turbo that is stock.

I don't anyone in the last 5, maybe even 10 years that has made decent power on a sidemount and certainly not enough to be competitive. I think that is why buschnuts let FMICs slide.

I second Bmans post, but I'm basically trying to throw out ideas to help.

[Halon]

I agree with some of your points, which is what makes it a tough call I think. But here's the big picture I guess I'm seeing.

Most people are going to enjoy being able to actually compete in a category. Whatever the name of it is, whatever. As long as there is a category that they feel they can actually compete in, and be competitive, that is going to make it more fun for them and actually get them more interested in competing that day, and in the future.

Right now there is a huge gap, which can make people feel disinclined about competing. You want people to enjoy the competition, and to me there's no better way than to actually have people feel that they are able to compete. This can be done by making categories that can accommodate several variations.

1) Stock Appearing - just like it sounds, Stock Appearing. There may be some exceptions here and there, but it's 90% just like the name sounds, stock appearing.

2) True Street 1 - Up to 1 power adder, turbos up to 56mm. This will take care of those that aren't truly meeting the Stock Appearing name. They are guys with tubular mani's, SMIM's, turbos from upgraded yet stock appearing, to bolt on 50trims, evo's with efr4's and all sorts of other stuff that make it not Stock Appearing, S256's, etc. Aimed at people making 300-450hp. People that without this category being in place, would either be waxing up in Stock Appearing making it annoying for people trying to actually be Stock Appearing. Or would end up being in the current True Street category having to compete against a 600hp 6262 powered car and be wondering why they are even trying to compete. I would think this would end up being the largest category as this represents the majority of what people have out on the streets in my opinion.

3) True Street 2 - Similar to what you called True Street before. Aimed at that 500-650hp group with 1 power adder, Turbos up to 62mm. This will get all the GT35/6262/S362 guys out there competing with each other.

4) True Street 3 - This is the guys pushing the term "street", 1 power adder, turbos up to 67mm. Get the guys running T67/6765/S366 competing with each other.

5) Outlaw - Anything goes. John vs. MAP vs. Probezilla vs. DaveH vs. Puerto-power vs. whatever... Anything goes, anything could happen when it comes to cars making that kinda power.


That's all just my opinion, and opinions are like assholes... Good luck with whatever you guys come up with. I'm sure it'll be fun and a huge event again no matter what!!

[turbotalon1g]

I agree with you 100% on the competition deal, I really want to be able to be competitive in a class no matter what it is, but I need to have a chance.

It seems like right now its either stock appearing or trap 140 or quick 16, which blows.

Nice work B.

[carltalon]

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

I really want to be able to be competitive in a class no matter what it is, but I need to have a chance.
Nice work B.

You could race your civic in the all motor class.

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

I don't anyone in the last 5, maybe even 10 years that has made decent power on a sidemount and certainly not enough to be competitive. I think that is why buschnuts let FMICs slide.

We'll see what a sidemount can do this summer. It will probly end up being the week link in my setup. But I want to see how far I can push it. 5 years ago no one was running E85 either. I think with E85 I can push it a little farther then people have in the past.

[turbotalon1g]

^I did it with my car, its a waste of time.

My honda would make it there no problems unlike your DSM p

[niterydr]

So the "stock appearing" 3/s crowd would be the TD04 based turbo's, or would we need to run stock housings, or TD04 housings? Can I run a slightly larger WRX compressor housing on my setup or do I have to hog out a 9b housing (stock turbo) to fit?

My opinion is that intercooling should be open. SMIC, FMIC, Water to Air. Most manufacturers have experimented with one, if not all 3, forms, and that is as bolt-on today as exhaust is. Unopened motors, stock displacement motors is where the line should be drawn for "stock appearing"

I've always liked "stock location, stock displacement" classes, keeps it open to creativity and puts definitive limits on what can and cannot be done.

[Tachyon]

Brandon, I was running a good sized FMIC last year, and it got heat soaked to hell after even 1 run (dropping about 3 MPH in that 90* ambient heat). I cannot even imagine a SMIC being remotely competitive with the boost levels needed to run on such small turbos. If aftermarket FMICs are not allowed, you might as well call this the Stock appearing Evo class.

But a lot of good discussion all around here... I am really torn between enforcing a stock appearing (something like under Scheides' hood) or, having it competitive for as many cars as possible. My gut says the solution might be having an additional class for the grey area cars (such as mine) where it's limited physically by the compressor size that are typically seen on mitsu platforms seen on the street (4-500 whp stuff). 1-point to enforce; should make it fairly easy.

[v8klla]

Maybe we should have two separate stock appearing classes, one for DSM/3S and another for Evo 8 & 9/Evo X? Allow 2g guys to run TD05 variants and let FMIC's slide? Personally I would also prefer to see manifold replacements slide as well, I know that its no longer "stock appearing" but its a pretty common upgrade for Evo guys...

[turbotalon1g]

I think because this is an import not just mitsu only event you guys should just hold the turbos to be stock appearing, meaning the comp. covers, hotsides, and maybe inlet sizes anyone looking beyond that is trying to be a pain.

I think that way tech would have an easier time checking out cars, IMO.

Also I think that you need to setup more classes regardless, something between stock appearing and 135-140 MPH cars.

Maybe an few index classes with .5 sec increments. starting with 11.0 or 10.5 then go up to about 12 secs?

If you let the manifold stuff slide then you can just concentrate the it being a "stock appearing turbo" class where all you have to concentrate is the turbo.

[turbotalon1g]

rules?

[v8klla]

Nick is supposed to be working on them, holler at your boy and get him motivated

[turbotalon1g]

lol, will do. He said something about Dan to me when I asked him earlier.