Drop the freaking wrench already!

[SlowWhite]

Well I'm sure who evers engine that belongs to is going to feel a lot better knowing that you checked it over.

[StealthGST]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

Well I'm sure who evers engine that belongs to is going to feel a lot better knowing that you checked it over.

Yeah, that would be my engine... and no I didn't build it

[Raptor]

Excellent, I decided I better pull the head off and check the pistons and ring gaps etc, considering the bottom end of this thing. Glad I did, First thing I notice is all the ARP's backing out, after that, pull the head off and see all the pistons sitting 180 out, in other words backwards. Some people may not think that matters a lot, but I assure you it does. The Piston pins are offset to one side, it effects quite a bit. Most obvious would be piston slap and wear. Also incorrect TDC to the valve timing events etc. Then there is a distinct lack of any lubrication on the cylinder wall, they are completely dry. The ring gaps are a little loose on the first ring, but tollerable, the second ring is exactly the same which is not tollerable. Along with a few other stupid things like the presence of an un-identified grainy substance in the cylinders (possibly from a cylinder hone) and of course the ring gaps being all lined up nicely. The importance of that has been in debated for years, some claim it doesn't matter some say it does, I can see arguments for both sides and likely it doesn't matter since the rings are completely free to rotate in whatever way they choose, I of course still take the extra time to put them in a nice staggered way. If it helps great, it can't hurt. Either way, this person should not have assembled an engine. Not a cheap one, expensive one or otherwise.

[FattyBoomBatty]

ok, i'll admit it. it was me. i mean, when i put the g54b together, i didn't use any "lube" i just poured oil down the hatch and cranked 'er about 10 or 12 times before plugging in the coil wire. she started right up.

but i've got great compression, i think it's in the 65-70 psi range.

mike, didn't you know? if you reverse the pistons it reduces torque transfer?

[95tsi]

Sounds like this motor came from the same guy I got one of my cars from... Some people just shouldn't try when they clearly have no clue or concept of what to do.

[dumb_ricer]

Wow, seems like a real garage mechanic to me. I bet they didnt use a torque wrench at all, just "eh fuck it, snug um up reely good'n it'll be yall rite".

And Mike, about what you were saying about staggering the rings, have you noticed them being un-staggered when pulling motors apart. From what I have seen, it seems like after break in, the rings would stay pretty close to the part of the cylinder wall that they broke in on in the first place. I know that now machining tolerances are very close, but you would think that the rings would wear in to a point and kind of lock themselves where they are? I dunno, just an observation.

[Raptor]

Nice thought, doesn't quite work that way. They don't wear enough of a groove in the cylinder wall to maintain a position relative to their install. They actually do have a tendency to line up to some degree, not always, but it is common to find them in a row on a motor that has run for a while. The main point is that they are completely free to spin in any way they choose and there is little short of pinning them that will stop it. It is good practice regardless to stagger them and for that reason it should be done. I always have and always will. If there is any chance they will maintain position, it is worth the few extra seconds

[dumb_ricer]

Interesting, then I have another question!

What is a modern break in actually doing then? If the rings dont "wear into the cylinders" then what is a modern break in actually doing? Assuming all the Machine work is correct and true, then what is actually "breaking in" on the motor that manufacturers and even professional race engine builders still suggest a break in? Assuming that the rings will always turn inside (havent seen anything proving they do or don't) then all that the rings and cylinder walls are doing is smoothing themselves out. In that case, I only see a break in procedure lasting 10-15min of 2000rpm and then a few times under load and the motor should be 99percent "broken in". Hmm, time to do some more research for me.

(And yes, every motor I have/will ever build will get the rings staggered)

[JET]

The rings do seat against the cylinder walls, but it isn't anything that would wear a groove in the cylinder wall. That is the main thing that happens on break-in.

[Raptor]

As mentioned, the primary reason for break in is getting the rings seated in. Before modern plateau honing methods, it took considerably longer as it was the rings job to level off the peaks left by the honing process (microscopic) Of course that wears the rings considerably more as well. Now days the rough honing is followed by a much finer hone that levels the peaks off so most of that process is already finished. In cases where plateau honing is used, the break in period is very quick almost as soon as the engine is warmed up. definately after the first few pulls. The main point is that in either case, the rings do not effect the cylinder wall nearly enough to leave any "guide" or retaining type ridge for the ring gaps to maintain a stagger. Just doesn't happen. In fact like I mentioned, they have more of a tendency to line up. I pulled another stock engine apart this week that 3 of the 4 pistons came out with all the ring gaps lined up. It had over 150K on it.

BTW, it is worth checking with whoever does you machining to see if it has been plateau honed so you know what is appropriate for break in. It seems like there are still quite a few shops that don't use it. They really all should.

[Enes]

you better listen to the old man, he knows it all!

afterall he is edumacated by the best!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6032

[Pushit2.0]

On Randys motor I just built we did a compression test after warming the car up for the first time, so 5-6 min of run time and already had 175 across the board. And checked on the dyno after 45miles(and 500+whp at the time) and it was 190 so I would say breaking in a motor would have somthing to do with how long it will last, not just to get compression and hold power.

~John

[Raptor]

Funny man E. That book just showed up, and like I expected, there were a few valuable bits of info in it. No one person knows everything, it should be everyones goal to be the best they can at whatever they may be trying to do which means lots of research in every concievable area. That specific book is a good reference regardless.

But more direct to the honing thing, that info has been in my old brain for more than a few years

[Raptor]

As usual, this thread has gone way off topic, so considering that it sounds like there is enough question as to why breakin is important and what it's primary reasons are etc maybe we should start an engine building basics thread in the tech area and hit all these topics. People obviously need the help, this week we pulled apart 90LaserRST's motor and of course found stupid mis-informed mistakes on it as well. (Not done by him I am told)
but none the less if people are going to insist on doing this stuff themselves, maybe they should have a resource where they can get the info to do it right and understand why.

[Enes]

Building engines is your business.


Every business has their secrets... but also some businesses don't have morals and are greedy.

You informing us on your secrets proves what part of the small % of the businessses you fit in.

[Raptor]

I appreciate the comments E. I am actually more concerned that if people are going to do this, that they do it correctly. The "secrets" that matter for making more power and doing things at a higher level, still get reserved for customers. I really don't do "stock" rebuilds so me helping people with understanding the correct methods and what they should and shouldn't do and why won't effect my business in a negative way at all. I want to give to the community, but at the same time, there has to be a good reason why people bring their stuff to me, if I told everyone what I do or all I know, they would have no reason other than my overly careful practices. Regardless of what past employees and friends have seen over the last couple years, I only let them see what I want them to see, I keep the stuff I don't want to share pretty much to myself. There has been nobody up to this point that has utilized all the little tricks I know, there are a few in the very near future that have agreed and are willing. BTW, the options are only thrown out there for consumption after I find out what the goals the customer is after. Some stuff, if it isn't needed to reach the goals they set, just isn't brought up. They are all overbuilt anyway

[Swifty1638]

..good thing you built my motor, huh raptor? I think it's overkill at the moment though..I think a bigger fmic, turbo and injectors are in order..

-A. Swift

[Raptor]

Overkill is good isn't it Much less in life to worry about.

[Swifty1638]

..very true..I just gotta fix the oil leaks, and fix the exhaust, and wait for that fuel rail, then tap the exhaust mani for the egt probe..arg..projects these days..lol

-A. Swift

[FattyBoomBatty]

OVRKILL

pretty good liscence plate!

my engine is so frickin bulletproof. :|