removal of monuments from government property

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

How about the fact that this nation was built on Christian values which does no one any harm. Or that fact that people want to come to America because of what its stands for, but then want to change it into where they came from.

This is exactly how I feel, and I know from re reading some of my posts my view point doesnt always come out clearly.

Our founding fathers although did there best to try to think of everything, they could only create laws based on what they thought our country would allow
And based on the times when it was written, half the stuff thats going on now you'd probably get hung or shot over.

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by jeremy1375

I'm not quite sure I see the distinction. What values are we founded on that are Christian?

Here are some that will make sense off the top of my head. Notice they are laws of the land all the way back to the founders that parallel Christian beliefs.

Freedom from oppression.
Freedom to make your own choices.
The belief that all life has value, murder is wrong.
Ownership/property rights and prosecution for theft.
Adultery as grounds for divorce.
Prosecution for slander/lying under oath.

Also notice though, they did not make it mandatory to be a part of the Christian religion (separation of church and state). Nor did they make laws saying you had to follow any one God. They also gave us freedom of speech (no matter how bad it could be, even against a God).

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

This is exactly how I feel, and I know from re reading some of my posts my view point doesnt always come out clearly.

Our founding fathers although did there best to try to think of everything, they could only create laws based on what they thought our country would allow
And based on the times when it was written, half the stuff thats going on now you'd probably get hung or shot over.

Given what they were able to put together using three branches of government and making into law what each one of them could or couldn't do, they were geniuses.

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by tpunx99GSX

Did you really just say Christian Values does no one any harm... History tends to disagree with you completely.

And how long ago were the crusades?

And what is the church doing now?

(I have my own view of religion, especially when it comes to going to church, I dont tie myself to any one christian denomination as I see faults with them all, so although its christian based i dont put a title on my beliefs.

For me with out religion in our gov. and laws based on it, our world as we know it will plunge back to the stone age.

If you think about it. Almost all of our world is what is today because of Christian or catholic people. And it sucks so many people are undoing century's of work. Because our government (obama... just for you tom because you said you were waiting for it) has made it so people have next to no responsibilities because they know our government will just support them financially.

[tpunx99GSX]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

Satan crap - resounding hell no I would be "offended". But that's because I dont agree with whay he stands for. And that also goes for religions that preach hate. And promote killings.

Scientology - i dont know anything about it other then the big bang theory is what i always thought that is what they believe. And the answer to that would be yes, but since we are taking all religion out of our gov.

Then put this stuff in museums or a dedicated building.

Lol Scientology has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Big Bang. It has NOTHING to do with science. It was made up like every other religion by a person. In scientologies case a man by the name of L Ron Hubbard

[SlowWhite]

375;456678]America was founded on the basis of religious freedom, at least according to the Constitution. The word "Christian" isn't anywhere in any document describing our government.[/QUOTE]

Correct, but how many members that wrote the law werent christian?.

So the laws were created based on christian beliefs.

[tpunx99GSX]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

And how long ago were the crusades?

And what is the church doing now?

(I have my own view of religion, especially when it comes to going to church, I dont tie myself to any one christian denomination as I see faults with them all, so although its christian based i dont put a title on my beliefs.

For me with out religion in our gov. and laws based on it, our world as we know it will plunge back to the stone age.

If you think about it. Almost all of our world is what is today because of Christian or catholic people. And it sucks so many people are undoing century's of work. Because our government (obama... just for you tom because you said you were waiting for it) has made it so people have next to no responsibilities because they know our government will just support them financially.

Well the church does a lot now and RECENT history. Whether it be oppression of homosexuals, oppression of human rights towards women, as early as the 20s and 40s indoctrination of native Americans where they removed children from their families to make them assimilate into their religions through boarding schools.
You can believe Christianity has changed but you would be wrong. It has as much blood and travesties on it as any other religion.

[tpunx99GSX]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

But did the gov. Pay for it?

I know several of the monuments here were privately donated.

Again read the Oklahoma state constitution. I quoted it earlier

[jeremy1375]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Here are some that will make sense off the top of my head. Notice they are laws of the land all the way back to the founders that parallel Christian beliefs.

Freedom from oppression.
Freedom to make your own choices.
The belief that all life has value, murder is wrong.
Ownership/property rights and prosecution for theft.
Adultery as grounds for divorce.
Prosecution for slander/lying under oath.

Also notice though, they did not make it mandatory to be a part of the Christian religion (separation of church and state). Nor did they make laws saying you had to follow any one God. They also gave us freedom of speech (no matter how bad it could be, even against a God).

If those rights came into effect based on Christian values, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have a list of verses that contain those things in a government building rather than the commandments? The commandments are based on the Christian religion, not values.

As an agnostic, the Ten Commandments in a gov't building give me the impression that one religion is getting favored over another, not values.

[tpunx99GSX]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

375;456678]America was founded on the basis of religious freedom, at least according to the Constitution. The word "Christian" isn't anywhere in any document describing our government.

Correct, but how many members that wrote the law werent christian?.

So the laws were created based on christian beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Of the founding fathers only one john jay considered himself to be an orthodox Christian, the rest believed in a diety however did not follow or identify as a Christian or believe Jesus was divine

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by jeremy1375

For the sake of argument, let's say America was founded on Christian beliefs. There are currently and historically a significant number of people with other beliefs that are citizens. They are all part of the history of America. Are you saying early history trumps recent history?

Most definetely at least for me. But your statement is one reason why I stopped going to church.

People have changed and watered down the original meanings so that it fits there personal needs. I was born Presbyterian, but couldn't find myself standing behind a denomination that was founded because a king didnt want to be married to his wife any more.

Although I am a divorcee. I still believe once you make thay oath both parties are supposed to do there part to uphold that oath. Just sucks that in today's society hardly anyone stands by there word. And people definetely dont have the "honor" that people used to stand for in themselves today.

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by tpunx99GSX

Well the church does a lot now and RECENT history. Whether it be oppression of homosexuals, oppression of human rights towards women, as early as the 20s and 40s indo. Peorination of native Americans where they removed children from their families to make them assimilate into their religions through boarding schools.
You can believe Christianity has changed but you would be wrong. It has as much blood and travesties on it as any other religion.

I definetely agree with you, some of the worste crimes in history were done in the names of religion. And definitely there are still issues that are on going.

Again I stopped going to church because I got sick and tired of seeing it over and over again. Where it got twisted into peoples personal desires. And I believe thats what our history shows, its the people that get it wrong.

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Given what they were able to put together using three branches of government and making into law what each one of them could or couldn't do, they were geniuses.

That ill agree with also. As I know I wouldn't have been able to even come close to what they tried to create, if I had to.

[SlowWhite]

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Originally Posted by tpunx99GSX

Correct, but how many members that wrote the law werent christian?.

So the laws were created based on christian beliefs.

Of the founding fathers only one john jay considered himself to be an orthodox Christian, the rest believed in a diety however did not follow or identify as a Christian or believe Jesus was divine[/QUOTE]

[Speedfreak]

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

And that also goes for religions that preach hate. And promote killings.

Because of how certain media and circles of ignorant people spread false information. I'm taking a guess and assuming you just shot across the bow of Islam/Muslims?

If so, you are misinformed. If you care to learn the truth, I'd be happy to chat.



Those who are out there doing hanous things in the name of Islam, are extremists who are off the reservation. 99% of Muslims disagree with these idiots actions. There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims in this world. There are bound to be those who use religion for their own agenda.

Regarding those founding fathers who wrote our history, there were some Muslims or at least some influence of the religion in there to(wasn't very known) if memory serves me right. But Christian/Jewish/Muslim religions are mostly the same anyways(which most people don't seem to know or want to acknowledge) so moot point.

Quick search result:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

And recent issues with the Church include bad things to little boys and there is still chaos in Ireland in the name of Christianity.

All religions have their nuts, its easy to point at someone else's and make generalized opinions. Don't forgot to look at your own first.

Regarding removal of items from these places. Who cares?

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by Speedfreak

Regarding removal of items from these places. Who cares?

Obviously many people,......

[SlowWhite]

Originally Posted by Speedfreak

Because of how certain media and circles of ignorant people spread false information. I'm taking a guess and assuming you just shot across the bow of Islam/Muslims?

If so, you are misinformed. If you care to learn the truth, I'd be happy to chat.



Those who are out there doing hanous things in the name of Islam, are extremists who are off the reservation. 99% of Muslims disagree with these idiots actions. There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims in this world. There are bound to be those who use religion for their own agenda.

Regarding those founding fathers who wrote our history, there were some Muslims or at least some influence of the religion in there to(wasn't very known) if memory serves me right. But Christian/Jewish/Muslim religions are mostly the same anyways(which most people don't seem to know or want to acknowledge) so moot point.

Quick search result:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

And recent issues with the Church include bad things to little boys and there is still chaos in Ireland in the name of Christianity.

All religions have their nuts, its easy to point at someone else's and make generalized opinions. Don't forgot to look at your own first.

Regarding removal of items from these places. Who cares?

There are radicals in every religion, those are the ones thay im referring to. It falls in line again with how people change it to fot there needs and desires

[Alpha D]

Since a lot of people are dissing on religion or Christianity...in my opinion this puts it very nicely, and makes a whole lot of sense. *Link at the bottom* In regards to the bad things people that profess to be Christ followers are. Humans are imperfect, and all bound to make mistakes there is no way around it. If the majority of the followers of a denomination participate in this wrong conduct, and or support it...you can not be considered true christian, and therefore should not be considered part of what actually makes up the foundation of this denomination or its definition. Now granted unfortunately were all visual people and make judgement's based of what we see, and people will be held responsible religions will be held responsible. Christendom as a whole will be held responsible for their conduct.

Like viscious stated beliefs like dont murder, dont steal, dont lie ect back in the day during the ancient times were NOT common among nations. Those laws or ten commandments also weren't given to EVERYONE at first but a specific group of people to start. That is besides the point though. Similar to how people that commit treason or some kind of other un patriotic act are considered UN american ect person's that practice pedophilia but profess to be priests ect can not be considered true members or let alone can be considered a christian.

I dont care who has what against the christian belief (I need to take that back i do care about people that have something against christian beliefs because --->) there is literally nothing that cant be answered and explained, there is nothing hateful about it, there is nothing demeaning about it...there is no oppression about anything...

However nothing can be explained to a person satisfaction, that is not looking for a reasonable "reason" to believe or understand a teaching. Let alone that is busy finding faults with this and that. On top of all that if one person is stupid enough to make a statement "It is in the name of such an such, but clearly works to the contrary is simply put a hypocrite (the bible speaks against those kind of people), the person that beliefs the "iI is in the name of" is not much further behind in intelligence if they have the means to compare the true teaching vs the actual conduct.

A link to more then enough sensible answers to a lot of questions ive even had. http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings...denominations/

[Trogdor]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Here are some that will make sense off the top of my head. Notice they are laws of the land all the way back to the founders that parallel Christian beliefs.

Freedom from oppression.
Freedom to make your own choices.
The belief that all life has value, murder is wrong.
Ownership/property rights and prosecution for theft.
Adultery as grounds for divorce.
Prosecution for slander/lying under oath.

Also notice though, they did not make it mandatory to be a part of the Christian religion (separation of church and state). Nor did they make laws saying you had to follow any one God. They also gave us freedom of speech (no matter how bad it could be, even against a God).

Being told that you're not allowed to get married because the way you were born feels a big oppressive if you ask me. Now, this is a bit off topic, and I'm not assuming that all Christians feel this way. But many obviously do, and are trying to use religion to justify their oppression.

And belief that adultery is grounds for divorce? Please, sneezing too loudly is fucking grounds for divorce in today's society.

[Alpha D]

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Being told that you're not allowed to get married because the way you were born feels a big oppressive if you ask me. Now, this is a bit off topic, and I'm not assuming that all Christians feel this way. But many obviously do, and are trying to use religion to justify their oppression.

And belief that adultery is grounds for divorce? Please, sneezing too loudly is fucking grounds for divorce in today's society.

Matthew 7:1-2 states stop judging so you are not judged!
Leviticus 18:22 (How much clearer does it need to get) Its Christendom's own fault for the ever so dwindling members
Romans 1:26 and 27

The above is what is written, no justifying of anything or oppressing. We are not to judge one another period done deal. If you do judge and actually condemn a person you are not following principal, again All we are instructed to do as christian is share what is read and everyone has to choose for themselves what is acceptable what is not, but we also don't tolerate, or justify in some way or another let alone encourage using twisted scriptures to make things ok....remember there will be a judging and the instructions in the bible are to help you guide your own life. Some will listen some will say you are crazy, thats fine. Dont loose sleep over it.