Proving Grounds 2012 - Page 8

turbotalon1g · 12-23-2011

Its not bad, I think since map is used to seeing most of the cars that will be there they would be able to tell if a car has a non-stock turbo on it really and if it has some crazy snake manifold well that is obvious too.

I'm sure most of the shops around here could tell. (Not me)

munchgsx · 12-23-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by v8klla

I don't have an ETA on when we'll be able to set the rules in stock, but I know you guys are trying to plan around it so I'll do my best. In regards to what will fly and what won't I don't see any MHI turbo being an issue, its the E cover or larger T3 based stuff that should probably be classed separately, do you agree?

Not exactly basing it on the flange. Note is says MHI not Mitsu flange. I think this will mean any Mitsu based turbo ie t25, t28, 13g, 14b, 16g, 18g, 20g, 25g, EF 1 2 3 4, FP green red black, you get my drift.

Correct me if I'm wrong Chris.

**Halon** · 12-23-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchgsx

Not exactly basing it on the flange. Note is says MHI not Mitsu flange.

I was referring to this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides

... Base it around the actual flange on the turbo IMHO, ...

**v8klla** · 12-23-2011

No matter what we do someone's not going to be happy about it. If you take "stock appearing" literally 2g guys are stuck with a T25/T28, 1g guys can get into a 20g or thereabouts, Evo 8 & 9 could run standard housing EF3/FP Red, and an Evo X could probably sneak by with an EF4 / FP Black setup based on their turbo inlet configuration. When I think about this class I feel a 20g/EF2/FP green should be the largest turbocharger allowed but how do we go about enforcing that?

**CornFed2.4** · 12-23-2011

Just set the rules as need be, and will have to follow them. Your never gonna make everyone happy, but if you make at least 75% your doing good. Also, at first glance if it looks stock your good to go.

Pushit2.0 · 12-24-2011

Just run the rules like any other sanctioning body. If it looks legit in tech let it run. But if you have someone cleaning house by some insane margin make them prove there setup is legal by the rule book. Then its up to the people racing in that class to ensure they are as legal and as fast as possible.

turbotalon1g · 12-24-2011

Big thanks for the effort here, I understand totally that you won't please everyone.

I don't know a lot about stock appearing turbos on other cars, but maybe if you educate us a little on their setups/looks we could be more help rather than just mitsu specific.

I think you are on the right track with MHI turbo, but I think a stock appearing turbo would be a good start with 16G/TDO5 (not sure if thats right) allowable for 2Gs.

No E-cover turbos for DSMs basically, evo's will be able to take the cake though since they have the FP/EFx line of turbos to pick from.

I'm not sure how this affects other car brands though. I'm interested in the other rules for the cars too, tires, full exhaust, etc.

I think if you set up more classes it might take the strain off of you guys for setting up a stock appearing/stock appearing turbo class.

**cmspaz** · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

I think if you set up more classes it might take the strain off of you guys for setting up a stock appearing/stock appearing turbo class.

I agree completely. The disconnect between what's allowed in Stock Appearing vs True Street is quite large.

**CornFed2.4** · 12-24-2011

Agree with Aaron, but I wanna know like FPR, FMIC, FP mani, ect...

Evos won't take the cake you auto 1G guys are lighter (I think). Plus they still have to drive there cars. LOL

turbotalon1g · 12-24-2011

It's funny you guys think 1.79+ 60 fts are automagic I was cutting 1.68s -1.70s in my 5 spds all day even with the scm61.

Autos are about 3300+lbs so they are pretty damn close with the evos.
I'm just trying to make a podium finish behind munchgsx and whoever else takes 2nd, assuming I can even make it.

**cmspaz** · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

Autos are about 3300+lbs so they are pretty damn close with the evos.

Why so fatty?

**scheides** · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

It's funny you guys think 1.79+ 60 fts are automagic I was cutting 1.68s -1.70s in my 5 spds all day even with the scm61.

I don't think anyonehas said that; I think 1.6 is about the benchmark for a street car (evo/dsm at least).

turbotalon1g · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmspaz

Why so fatty?

Transmission is heavier, TCU, and tq converter. I've also heard that the wiring harness is even noticeably bigger/heavier than a 5 spd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides

I don't think anyonehas said that; I think 1.6 is about the benchmark for a street car (evo/dsm at least).

Everyone keeps hinting on the not having to drive the car, this is the only part I see where it has the major advantage, i guess I forgot how bad mitsu drivers really are.

**Halon** · 12-24-2011

My personal opinion. Stock appearing should be just that, stock appearing! Yes it's true Evo's will have an advantage when it comes to turbo size. Oh well, it is what it is. Pick your platform and deal with the pro's/con's of what you chose. I have a feeling even with the handicap of having to run smaller turbos, there will be some DSM's going pretty far. Last year Tachyon took 2nd in his 1G.

The only exceptions I can think of is 2G's being allowed to run TD05 size turbos. That's been the norm for quite some time so I think that should still apply. Also for exhaust manifolds. If you can pass it off as looking fairly stock, then you're good. Example would be an FP Cast manifold, with a heatshield applied in such a way that it really doesn't stick out, well then you're good. If you have a tubular manifold, well that's obviously not stock and usually sticks out, so unless you find a way to really hide that thing and make it not stand out, then that wouldn't fly if it were up to me. FMIC's on DSM's, my initial reaction is they sure didn't have them stock. So unless you found a clever way to really make it look like you don't have one, I don't see how that could pass as stock appearing. Did Tachyon have an FMIC when he took 2nd last year?

I also agree with Aaron and Carl. There shouldn't be such a large gap with the other classes. If someone is running a 50trim DSM, he can't run in stock appearing, so he's going to enter the 62mm and below group and not stand a chance. Make the stock appearing class an actual competitive class that truly is STOCK APPEARING. Then setup a couple other classes based on inducer size (<56mm, <62mm, <67mm)

carltalon · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon

My personal opinion. Stock appearing should be just that, stock appearing! Yes it's true Evo's will have an advantage when it comes to turbo size. Oh well, it is what it is. Pick your platform and deal with the pro's/con's of what you chose. I have a feeling even with the handicap of having to run smaller turbos, there will be some DSM's going pretty far. Last year Tachyon took 2nd in his 1G.

The only exceptions I can think of is 2G's being allowed to run TD05 size turbos. That's been the norm for quite some time so I think that should still apply. Also for exhaust manifolds. If you can pass it off as looking fairly stock, then you're good. Example would be an FP Cast manifold, with a heatshield applied in such a way that it really doesn't stick out, well then you're good. If you have a tubular manifold, well that's obviously not stock and usually sticks out, so unless you find a way to really hide that thing and make it not stand out, then that wouldn't fly if it were up to me. FMIC's on DSM's, my initial reaction is they sure didn't have them stock. So unless you found a clever way to really make it look like you don't have one, I don't see how that could pass as stock appearing. Did Tachyon have an FMIC when he took 2nd last year?

I also agree with Aaron and Carl. There shouldn't be such a large gap with the other classes. If someone is running a 50trim DSM, he can't run in stock appearing, so he's going to enter the 62mm and below group and not stand a chance. Make the stock appearing class an actual competitive class that truly is STOCK APPEARING. Then setup a couple other classes based on inducer size (<56mm, <62mm, <67mm)

I agree with everything Brandon said here. I think the real thing that is cool about a stock apearing class is to see how far people can push a car on close to stock components. If we alow tubular manifolds and SMIMs then what is really stock about the car. I personaly am going to set my car up the way I want and will run it in whatever class it fits into (which shold be stock apearing ). There will always be someone with better driveing ability, a bigger wallet or more time to put into there car that is going to beat me. So I just want to go and have a good time.

bramagedained · 12-24-2011

So I can't just wrap my tubular manifold in foil and call it a stock appearing manifold?

turbotalon1g · 12-24-2011

That is why they could choose to call it stock appearing TURBO class instead then it would only have to be a turbo that is stock.

I don't anyone in the last 5, maybe even 10 years that has made decent power on a sidemount and certainly not enough to be competitive. I think that is why buschnuts let FMICs slide.

I second Bmans post, but I'm basically trying to throw out ideas to help.

**Halon** · 12-24-2011

I agree with some of your points, which is what makes it a tough call I think. But here's the big picture I guess I'm seeing.

Most people are going to enjoy being able to actually compete in a category. Whatever the name of it is, whatever. As long as there is a category that they feel they can actually compete in, and be competitive, that is going to make it more fun for them and actually get them more interested in competing that day, and in the future.

Right now there is a huge gap, which can make people feel disinclined about competing. You want people to enjoy the competition, and to me there's no better way than to actually have people feel that they are able to compete. This can be done by making categories that can accommodate several variations.

1) Stock Appearing - just like it sounds, Stock Appearing. There may be some exceptions here and there, but it's 90% just like the name sounds, stock appearing.

2) True Street 1 - Up to 1 power adder, turbos up to 56mm. This will take care of those that aren't truly meeting the Stock Appearing name. They are guys with tubular mani's, SMIM's, turbos from upgraded yet stock appearing, to bolt on 50trims, evo's with efr4's and all sorts of other stuff that make it not Stock Appearing, S256's, etc. Aimed at people making 300-450hp. People that without this category being in place, would either be waxing up in Stock Appearing making it annoying for people trying to actually be Stock Appearing. Or would end up being in the current True Street category having to compete against a 600hp 6262 powered car and be wondering why they are even trying to compete. I would think this would end up being the largest category as this represents the majority of what people have out on the streets in my opinion.

3) True Street 2 - Similar to what you called True Street before. Aimed at that 500-650hp group with 1 power adder, Turbos up to 62mm. This will get all the GT35/6262/S362 guys out there competing with each other.

4) True Street 3 - This is the guys pushing the term "street", 1 power adder, turbos up to 67mm. Get the guys running T67/6765/S366 competing with each other.

5) Outlaw - Anything goes. John vs. MAP vs. Probezilla vs. DaveH vs. Puerto-power vs. whatever... Anything goes, anything could happen when it comes to cars making that kinda power.

That's all just my opinion, and opinions are like assholes...

Good luck with whatever you guys come up with. I'm sure it'll be fun and a huge event again no matter what!!

turbotalon1g · 12-24-2011

I agree with you 100% on the competition deal, I really want to be able to be competitive in a class no matter what it is, but I need to have a chance.

It seems like right now its either stock appearing or trap 140 or quick 16, which blows.

Nice work B.

carltalon · 12-24-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

I really want to be able to be competitive in a class no matter what it is, but I need to have a chance.
Nice work B.

You could race your civic in the all motor class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

I don't anyone in the last 5, maybe even 10 years that has made decent power on a sidemount and certainly not enough to be competitive. I think that is why buschnuts let FMICs slide.

We'll see what a sidemount can do this summer. It will probly end up being the week link in my setup. But I want to see how far I can push it. 5 years ago no one was running E85 either. I think with E85 I can push it a little farther then people have in the past.