Bastard 20G?

[john]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...bayphotohosting

Do you mean 650 cfm? Here are the links from before. I am not so sure I believe it will go in without taking out the support. It looks like it is 2.8" thick so it might. I have only installed 3.5 inch ones. It looks like you will most likely be running long route piping the way the end tanks are or at least not have to cut the frame rail. On slowbubblecar's 2g, his core is 28" long and his endtanks pointed straight towards the engine so he had to cut a lot. It should be a good setup when it is done though.

[howslowcanyougo]

My mistake, the standard"Hybrid" tube and fin 2.8 width flows 650 cfm, this custom model bar and plate @ 3.5" width suppose to flow @ 750 cfm.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...e+intercoolers


"Just a lil fyi, they have two 7" kits. One flows 650cfm and the other flows 750 cfm. The full bar&plate is the more flowing unit. So I think it should handle a 50trim fine. I just ordered my 7" bar&plate kit on monday. Total w/ shipping was $820($45 for shipping)

Thanks again for the great insights guys!

[howslowcanyougo]

Just saw this post up at "tooners".....


Looping the waterlines is a super easy job. A 12" piece of hose and loop from one to the other, no big deal.

Oil cooled turbos are designed to be only oil cooled and will last just as long as an oil/water cooled turbo. Generally most guys racing run the bearing out of the turbo from high speed and high load long before heat will ever kill it. You must still cool an oil cooled turbo the same as a oil/water cooled turbo, the procedure is no different. Most turbo manufacturers (Turbonetics / Precision / Garrett) recommend only 30 seconds of cool time after a hard drive. I personally have put over 75,000km (50,000 miles) on my last oil only turbo (on a Turbo VW) and it was no different in shape then my T25 that came off my current car with 50,000 miles on it.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...ock+waterlines

So can you really just loop the turbo waterlines together for a V Trim install or?

TIA...

[Shane@DBPerformance]

Yes, you can just loop them, don't try to plug them with a rubber cap, that won't last long. Most guys out there running bigger turbos that are not 16Gs or 20Gs, don't run water cooling. Cool down time for a turbo is only needed after you just ran it hard. If you were just driving like normal, none is needed.

[howslowcanyougo]

Well I just chickened out and changed my Turbo order to the Evo3 with the big flapper. I just can't see paying all the $ to install the ARP's and HG in this 7 bolt motor, as needed for the 60 trim.

Even between this Evo3 turbo and the new FMIC, you'd think I still should see some descent gains?

[At-Least-It's-An-Evo]

Why are ARPs and a headgasket required for a 60 trim? Detonation is what kills headgaskets and lifts the head, not the size of your turbo.

[howslowcanyougo]

Originally Posted by BuyMySC300

Why are ARPs and a headgasket required for a 60 trim? Detonation is what kills headgaskets and lifts the head, not the size of your turbo.

That's the info that "slowbubblecar" posted to this thread? I'm no expert, but pushing more air and boost = loosing headgaskets makes sense to me?

Overall in my case, with this car, right now, I think that I'm better off backing off from the 60 trim, and settleing for the Evo3 and the FMIC upgrades.

[TheBlizzard]

Originally Posted by BuyMySC300

Why are ARPs and a headgasket required for a 60 trim? Detonation is what kills headgaskets and lifts the head, not the size of your turbo.

So your saying someone could run 30+ psi on stock headbolts and be ok as long as its on a good tune? I agree with the headgasket not having to be anything more than a stock Mitsu since its just like a fuse in my opinion. But not having headbolts? Don't know about that one.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

Originally Posted by CRAIG

So your saying someone could run 30+ psi on stock headbolts and be ok as long as its on a good tune? I agree with the headgasket not having to be anything more than a stock Mitsu since its just like a fuse in my opinion. But not having headbolts? Don't know about that one.

Yes, go search on another board about the strength of stock head bolts. 30+psi has and is being run by people with stock 6-bolt head bolts. The 7-bolt ones are 1mm smaller and torque to yield, so they are much weaker and can't handle as much, but people regularly run in the high 20s with them also. Been there done that. I think 1VicousGSx also ran his stocker 7-bolt head bolts into the mid/high 20s.

Originally Posted by howslowcanyougo

According to this same thread, it looks like 4 lbs more per minute on the Evo3, is 40 + 25 for the new FMIC install = 65 HP gain!

Don't expect a huge gain. A FMIC will allow you to run higher boost, which equals more HP. At the same boost level, putting a FMIC on probably won't gain you 25whp, unless you were pushing the old sidemount past the edge of safety and knocking alot. And yes the EVO 3 16G does flow more air, but you will probably have to run more boost to get more of that air. For example, if it flows 4 lbs/min more, then if you run at only 18psi you might only see a gain of 1-2 lb/min over a Big 16G. The guys making alot of power out the EVO 16Gs are running high high boost and it can hold medium high boost longer than the olders 16G could maintain it. The EVO 16G is a great turbo though, it kicks the ass of some of the smaller GT turbos that some of the tooners vendors tried to hype up last year.

Originally Posted by Carlos

Alpine got ~319hp to the wheels last year on his with a FMIC and dyno tuning on race gas. I wouldn't expect that out of your car as it is an auto. You would have to be the second person who made 400hp on an evo 16g to get ~320 to the wheels.

~320 to the wheels on with an auto on race gas is probably possible with the EVO 16G and a good supporting cast. 319whp is a low number for even a normal 16G on race gas. I have had cars make close to 300whp on pump gas with the older Big 16Gs and a good setup. And 335+whp on race gas and moderate boost is common on the older small and big 16Gs. It is so rare around here though to see a 16G with a good setup and have the owner want to try to push it on race that I don't know what they are really capable of. Most of the guys who were pushing the 16Gs hard, have moved onto big turbo setups and it seems like everyone around here wants to start out with a 61mm turbo nowdays, even if they don't have a single part to support it.

[TheBlizzard]

Originally Posted by ecoli

Yes, go search on another board about the strength of stock head bolts. 30+psi has and is being run by people with stock 6-bolt head bolts. The 7-bolt ones are 1mm smaller and torque to yield, so they are much weaker and can't handle as much, but people regularly run in the high 20s with them also. Been there done that. I think 1VicousGSx also ran his stocker 7-bolt head bolts into the mid/high 20s.

I kinda thought that it would be obvious I was talking about a 2G since thats the car in question in the thread isn't it? Either way just because some people have done it doesn't mean its the right thing to do. Nash ran 40lbs of boost on a stock bottom end, did it blow up? No. Is it in somebodies best interest to do that? Probably not.

[john]

Originally Posted by ecoli

~320 to the wheels on with an auto on race gas is probably possible with the EVO 16G and a good supporting cast. 319whp is a low number for even a normal 16G on race gas. I have had cars make close to 300whp on pump gas with the older Big 16Gs and a good setup. And 335+whp on race gas and moderate boost is common on the older small and big 16Gs. It is so rare around here though to see a 16G with a good setup and have the owner want to try to push it on race that I don't know what they are really capable of. Most of the guys who were pushing the 16Gs hard, have moved onto big turbo setups and it seems like everyone around here wants to start out with a 61mm turbo nowdays, even if they don't have a single part to support it.

Anything is possible if you think about it. Likely, probly not without nitrous. He would have to be pushing a good 400hp to the crank to make that power in an auto. Let say a manual car for example loses roughly 20% to the wheels on the dyno. If a car made 400 crank Hp it would make 320 to the wheels (400x.8=320). Oviously an auto looses more through the drivetrain. I drove an auto spider a year ago and it felt like the old integra was quicker. Felt like a NT. Looking at the tooners dyno list, the highest on the list for a 16g is a big 16g making 348 to the wheels on a 99gsx at AMS. Here is the setup on the car:

Bolt-On Mods:
SHEP Built RACE Tranny (w/ 4 spider center diff), Ported EVO III 16G, DSM Link V2, SBR 2G FMIC kit w/ short rout piping, ACT 2600, Rewired Walbro 255HP, PTE 880cc Injectors, Custom Cold Air Intake w/ Injen intake pipe, 1G 60mm Throttle Body and Intake Manifold, HKS SSQ BOV, Hallman EVO Boost Controller, SBR Cast Exhaust Manifold, 3" Tubular o2 housing, Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel, Greddy External Oil Cooler, 3" turbo back exhaust with cat, Ported Intake Manifold, Full Throttle AFPR, Fluidyne Radiator w/ slimline 12" fan, Auto Meter Ultra Lite Boost Gauge, Greddy 52mm EGT Gauge, NGK BPR7ES Plugs, Taylor Race Wires, Greddy TT

Engine Internals:
Built 6-Bolt, Pauter Billet Chromoly X-beam rods, JE .020 9:1 pistons, BJ's Stage 5 Ported Head, Crower Titanium Valve Retainers, Crower Valve Springs, HKS 272's, 1mm Oversized Stainless Valves, Revised Lifters, Cometic Steel Head Gasket, ARP Head Studs

I would say this guy has a pretty good 16g setup. He ran 12.0. Would be hard to accomplish with a stock motor and an auto... Looks like he has the other 20g anyhow.

[scheides]

Headgaskets get blown by detonation and high boost pressure. a 60-trim will be fine on your stock motor, just do not run more than ~25 lbs of boost. Past that, the stock head studs are not strong enough and the head will start lifting away from the block. Add in the higher likelyhood of detonation at those high boost levels and you got yourself a wicked detonation. Go for a scm61 or something, and tune it for like 19-21 psi and you'll have yourself a pump gas monster.

[slowbubblecar]

My car blew coolant past the HG on 25 psi pump with a 60 trim. The car was not running too lean either. It had 1.83 counts of knock on that run and seemd to run fine except the big cloud of white smoke pouring out the back. My friends car behind me and my car were both misted with coolant. The HG was a new stocker copper sprayed and was torqued down to 95 with a snap on torque wrench. The head bolts were new arps. The car had about 20 miles on it and 2 highway pulls.

[howslowcanyougo]

Guess for me I'd rather be a bit safer than alot sorrier right now.

You'd think this Evo3 with a Evo3 O2 Housing, big flapper and new front mount should net me ~50 to 75 more HP than my old failing Big 16 and stock side mount, right?

Also there seems to be outright disagreement on this board right now, on both headgasket/headbolt standards in relation to turbo size and boost, thus I can't really feel very confident on depending on either of the answers as being true or false in my case.

Besides, I admit I'm still a n00b, and I rather learn some more before going too big and and end up just wrecking my motor.

<cough remember "brokenblackknocking50trim"? cough>

[slowbubblecar]

I don't think 50-75 hp is easily gainable unless the car was just so far out of tune before. The evo3 isn't that much bigger than the old one and I don't think they will get you that much more hp.

[howslowcanyougo]

Originally Posted by slowbubblecar

I don't think 50-75 hp is easily gainable unless the car was just so far out of tune before. The evo3 isn't that much bigger than the old one and I don't think they will get you that much more hp.

Looks to me here like a new Evo3 would walk all over a sick big16?

http://www.slowboyracing.com/evo16g.htm

And I suppose the big front mount vs a stock SMIC is worth no gains?

Guess I need a 60 trim and to blow a HG to get anywhere then?

[john]

Howie, if you want to do it right, listen to the rest of us who say you should replace the HG on a larger setup. I think an evo 16g is too small to attain you goals of +50hp. It is not much larger than a big 16g. Alpine got ~319hp to the wheels last year on his with a FMIC and dyno tuning on race gas. I wouldn't expect that out of your car as it is an auto. You would have to be the second person who made 400hp on an evo 16g to get ~320 to the wheels. There are quite a bit of possabilites of turbos between the 16g and 60 trim... I would chose a PTE 50 trim or a 20g. I think they will make you happy. I

[john]

Read my post...

[john]

An evo 16g flows ~2lbs per minute more than a b16g. That is a diff of about ~20hp. Here is a bit more info about the turbos:

http://www.dsmstyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1229

The thread you pointed to made no claim of a signifigant diff in HP potential. In a car with a s16g and a evo 16g, I would bet on the driver. I do not see a big difference between any of the 16g turbos to justify calling it a worthwile upgrade for you.

[howslowcanyougo]

The Evo3 vs 50 Trim battle wages on....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...highlight=evo3