Setup Suggestions, input greatly appreciated!

[Constant_Project21]

I'm in the process of planning out my new setup for my 1g. I've decieded to go a little more built than first expected, and would greatly appreciate input. I've talked this over with Bob at work (MAP porting guru) but never hurts to ask for more opinions. Here's what I have planned, for the new setup, but also have some unknowns that still need to filled in- (btw, my goal will ultimately be a pretty reliable 400hp car on e85 eventually, maybe not until I upgrade the snail)

Basic engine:
MAP stage 1 shortblock, with the BSE kit, stock crank, just their basic build, with a few exceptions.

RODS-eagle, the ones that come with all stage one builds. I've been told they should have no problem handling 600hp

PISTONS-wiesco, and this is one spot I would like input on. The stage one build comes with the option of an 8.3:1 Manley, or a 8.5:1 wiesco. After chatting with Bob, he had suggested going with a higher compression ratio, something like a 8.8:1, 9:1, or even a 9.5:1, due to my 16g/e85 combo. He said, that I would benifit from the extra compression on the smaller turbo and on corn juice. (the planned successor to the 16g, would be a fp3052 or something similar, keep that in mind) What are your thoughts, and what compression ratio would you recommend going with?

HEAD(1g): There will be some mild port/polish work done, as well as a valve job and some cleaning of the bowls. I discussed a possible 1mm oversized
valves, but overall don't think I would benifit too much from it, so believe I will be sticking with stock valves (chime in if you have suggestions relating to valves). Springs/retainers, may see an upgrade, but then again, a 16g doesn't have the craziest top end, and won't be revving to the moon.

CAMS: The car used to have hks264's, which have been sold. I don't want to throw a ton of money at cams, so those of you using a cheaper yet effective cam, please share some insight on some possible suggestions.

TURBO: A ported, externally gated 16g (for now). I have one, which is why I'm going that route, and as mentioned before, plan to go bigger down the road.

FUEL SYSTEM: This is the biggest unknown for me. I currently have a walbro 255hp, on a stock fpr. I recently aquired FIC (Bosch) 1600cc injectors (overkill, but no need to upgrade), so those will be my injectors. My question is, is there any reason to use anything more than the one 255? I've been told in the past I may need a second pump, but recently have been told otherwise. I'll be putting a AFPR on as well.

EXHAUST: Have a full 3" N1 already, and will be using a MAP recirc o2 housing, paired with a tial mvs wastegate. Plan to pick up an Fp race manifold as well.

TUNING: DSMlink

Any input will be helpful. May have left a few things out, typing this on my iPhone, because my computer is being dumb, and couldve left some things out.

Thanks in advance!!
Dan.

[Halon]

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

I'm in the process of planning out my new setup for my 1g. I've decieded to go a little more built than first expected, and would greatly appreciate input. I've talked this over with Bob at work (MAP porting guru) but never hurts to ask for more opinions. Here's what I have planned, for the new setup, but also have some unknowns that still need to filled in- (btw, my goal will ultimately be a pretty reliable 400hp car on e85 eventually, maybe not until I upgrade the snail)

Basic engine:
MAP stage 1 shortblock, with the BSE kit, stock crank, just their basic build, with a few exceptions.

RODS-eagle, the ones that come with all stage one builds. I've been told they should have no problem handling 600hp

Perfect I agree

PISTONS-wiesco, and this is one spot I would like input on. The stage one build comes with the option of an 8.3:1 Manley, or a 8.5:1 wiesco. After chatting with Bob, he had suggested going with a higher compression ratio, something like a 8.8:1, 9:1, or even a 9.5:1, due to my 16g/e85 combo. He said, that I would benifit from the extra compression on the smaller turbo and on corn juice. (the planned successor to the 16g, would be a fp3052 or something similar, keep that in mind) What are your thoughts, and what compression ratio would you recommend going with?

I like the 8.5 Wiseco's. But if you plan to make big power, I worry about standard Wiseco's as I've seen lots of cracking take place in the wrist pin area.

But really at 16g power levels, a stock build is more than capable!

HEAD(1g): There will be some mild port/polish work done, as well as a valve job and some cleaning of the bowls. I discussed a possible 1mm oversized
valves, but overall don't think I would benifit too much from it, so believe I will be sticking with stock valves (chime in if you have suggestions relating to valves). Springs/retainers, may see an upgrade, but then again, a 16g doesn't have the craziest top end, and won't be revving to the moon.

I would recommend a stock 2g head, done. In my opinion, they are a superior design than the 1G design.

CAMS: The car used to have hks264's, which have been sold. I don't want to throw a ton of money at cams, so those of you using a cheaper yet effective cam, please share some insight on some possible suggestions.

I'd say find a set of used HKS 272's. They should be affordable, and you're set for quite awhile.

TURBO: A ported, externally gated 16g (for now). I have one, which is why I'm going that route, and as mentioned before, plan to go bigger down the road.

FUEL SYSTEM: This is the biggest unknown for me. I currently have a walbro 255hp, on a stock fpr. I recently aquired FIC (Bosch) 1600cc injectors (overkill, but no need to upgrade), so those will be my injectors. My question is, is there any reason to use anything more than the one 255? I've been told in the past I may need a second pump, but recently have been told otherwise. I'll be putting a AFPR on as well.

one 255 should be all you need with a 16g, even with e85. stock FPR is fine, only thing that might be affected is idle situations.

EXHAUST: Have a full 3" N1 already, and will be using a MAP recirc o2 housing, paired with a tial mvs wastegate. Plan to pick up an Fp race manifold as well.

good

TUNING: DSMlink

Perfect

[goodhart]

Single walbro should be enough for anything you want to throw at a 16g.

I would do a 2g head, the ports are smaller, but flow better from everyone I have talked to about heads. Shane and I had a talk about heads last summer when I brought a friend's car to get tuned. He had a stock 7 bolt longblock with an E316G, made 360HP and 320 torque I wanna say? He switched to a 2.3 stroker and a 1g head with a SMIM and lost power (made 347/361) on the same dyno with only those things changed. I asked Shane why he lost power with the bigger motor and SMIM, and he said it was most likely the head flow. PM Shane if you want more info I would say.

Other than that, the whole setup sounds like a good plan!!

Although, you might wanna pay Randyy before you dump to much money into this thing.

[Constant_Project21]

Thanks for the input so far guys!
Brandon, if I were to go the route of going 9:1 or something of the sort, I'd have to have them custom made according to Bob (not too much more expensive funny enough). I'd only want use HD's, as I as well have been hearing a bunch about the regular wiesco's having issues.

About the 2g head, I myself have read up on it, and have been debating on going that route. But I've also read, that a ported 1g head is just as good, if not better than a 2g head, even when ported. People always seem to be on the fence with this one.

Mike, I'll get randyy his whopping $50.

[awd-drifter]

I was thinking about getting 1g cams and bringing them to get regrinded to 272s for, i think, $200 total. You could say that is a 'less expensive' cam upgrade if you install the cams yourself. as for turbo...I've always had my eye on FP's 18g-sl2, or something like that

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

I'm in the process of planning out my new setup for my 1g. I've decieded to go a little more built than first expected, and would greatly appreciate input. I've talked this over with Bob at work (MAP porting guru) but never hurts to ask for more opinions. Here's what I have planned, for the new setup, but also have some unknowns that still need to filled in- (btw, my goal will ultimately be a pretty reliable 400hp car on e85 eventually, maybe not until I upgrade the snail)

Basic engine:
MAP stage 1 shortblock, with the BSE kit, stock crank, just their basic build, with a few exceptions.

RODS-eagle, the ones that come with all stage one builds. I've been told they should have no problem handling 600hp

Good so far.

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

PISTONS-wiesco, and this is one spot I would like input on. The stage one build comes with the option of an 8.3:1 Manley, or a 8.5:1 wiesco. After chatting with Bob, he had suggested going with a higher compression ratio, something like a 8.8:1, 9:1, or even a 9.5:1, due to my 16g/e85 combo. He said, that I would benifit from the extra compression on the smaller turbo and on corn juice. (the planned successor to the 16g, would be a fp3052 or something similar, keep that in mind) What are your thoughts, and what compression ratio would you recommend going with?

The higher the compression, the more overall torque, and thus, power you will make, off and on boost. However, the higher the compression, the more control over the combustion chamber you will need. What are your tuning options? If it was a standalone car, I would go 9.5:1. If its running piggybacks, 8.5:1 is good.

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

HEAD(1g): There will be some mild port/polish work done, as well as a valve job and some cleaning of the bowls. I discussed a possible 1mm oversized
valves, but overall don't think I would benifit too much from it, so believe I will be sticking with stock valves (chime in if you have suggestions relating to valves). Springs/retainers, may see an upgrade, but then again, a 16g doesn't have the craziest top end, and won't be revving to the moon.

CAMS: The car used to have hks264's, which have been sold. I don't want to throw a ton of money at cams, so those of you using a cheaper yet effective cam, please share some insight on some possible suggestions.

I am going to lump these together, as doing one without the other is just plain stupid. Are you using a 1g head or a 2g head? The 1g heads typically flow more CFM, 2g heads typically yield more velocity on most mild port jobs. That being said, both heads benefit from mild clean up and valve un-shrouding, especially if you are going over-sized valves. Larger valve area=larger potential for airflow, both in peak and overall averages. However, over-sized valves eat into a budget quickly.
Match your head to your cam's. I've always seen good results with a mild cam. Something with normal durations @ .050" lift, without crazy high lift numbers will yield good idle and driveability. I haven't been in the scene for awhile regarding what is hot and cool in DSM land, but you need to match your cam to your expected powerband. How high are you reving? When do you want peak power? What intake/exhaust manifolds are you using? Do you plan on keeping the 16g forever? Evo 16g? Also, consider cam gears, you'll be surprised what you can gain with them coupled with tuning.

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

TURBO: A ported, externally gated 16g (for now). I have one, which is why I'm going that route, and as mentioned before, plan to go bigger down the road.

How long is "for now"? Why an external gate? What boost levels are you trying to run? Evo 16g? How much "bigger" do you plan on going? What are your overall power goals?

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

FUEL SYSTEM: This is the biggest unknown for me. I currently have a walbro 255hp, on a stock fpr. I recently aquired FIC (Bosch) 1600cc injectors (overkill, but no need to upgrade), so those will be my injectors. My question is, is there any reason to use anything more than the one 255? I've been told in the past I may need a second pump, but recently have been told otherwise. I'll be putting a AFPR on as well.

Fuel is needed for power. Understand your power levels and you will understand your fuel requirements. What are you using for tuning for 1600cc injectors? There is no reason to put excessively large injectors on a vehicle, especially if using a piggyback, it will create a tuning nightmare.

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

EXHAUST: Have a full 3" N1 already, and will be using a MAP recirc o2 housing, paired with a tial mvs wastegate. Plan to pick up an Fp race manifold as well.

Sounds good. Now we need to know your intake manifold choice and intercooler sizing, as well as future turbo sizes, power band requirements, vehicle requirements, to size cams/rest of setup

Originally Posted by Constant_Project21

TUNING: DSMlink

Any input will be helpful. May have left a few things out, typing this on my iPhone, because my computer is being dumb, and couldve left some things out.

Thanks in advance!!
Dan.

DSMlink is a good system, which version? Do you have a wideband? Will you be doing any tuning or having a professional do it? I heard a quote once, somewhere, and it stuck with me. "Tuning isn't an event, its a lifelong experience" Setup's change, conditions change, and parts fatigue. Good tuners understand this and that is why they are constantly tweaking their vehicles. People that tune their car once every 4 years are probably leaving a lot on the table, unless there is some sort of auto calibration built in, or they do not change anything.

Good luck.

[Halon]

I like the HD Wiseco's, but man it is serious overkill for your setup. I don't really know about the Manley pistons but they seem affordable and may be worth looking into. ExtremePSI shows them in both 8.5 and 9.0 ratios. I personally would go with 8.5 because I feel it will only assist in making tuning simpler, and well if you want more power, just add more boost! I personally run Mahle's which are very nicely priced, are hard anodized, and are one of the lighter pistons available off the shelf for our motors. But they seem to be more prone to cold start up piston slap due to being made from a different material. And their skirts are slightly shorter so I've wondered if that would affect longevity. But I've been rocking them for nearly 5 years now I think, and they are doing fine.

Is there something wrong with the motor, because really it seems like the money spent building the bottom end could be wisely spent elsewhere since you're going to be on a 16g setup.

As for the head differences. I personally feel the 2G head is a better design. The smaller ports allow for higher velocity, and the angle the intake ports take towards the valves is less extreme. If you have a way to simply clean up the casting on the intake ports, that's about all I would do. I wouldn't mess with an extreme port job, or 1mm over valves at your levels. Once again, money could be spent wiser elsewhere.

Everyone will have their own opinions, and it's your choice in the end to decide what is best for you. Good luck with the build!!!

[jrohner]

Originally Posted by Halon

I personally would go with 8.5 because I feel it will only assist in making tuning simpler, and well if you want more power, just add more boost!

But running a 16G means you can't really run much boost on top end; 30 at most even with all the tweaks and 'tricks'. I would go 9:1 if you want to save a little money, otherwise 10:1 custom pistons. He's going to run E85, so it can handle it fine.

I do agree on running the 2G head.

I think the BC272 cams are the perfect match for a 16G, no big loss of off-boost power, same spool as stock cams, more power and torque everywhere. They seem to make the most of the 16G, bigger cams will just trade off torque and spool for maybe a few more unnoticed hp. It doesn't pay to lose a bunch of torque with a turbo that's basically known for torque and mid range power. The torque hit is what makes the 16G so fun; I regret getting bigger cams for my car.

Save the extra expense and parts of an external gate and just get a higher pressure WGA, such as a Holset one, so you can hold a few more PSI on the top end. Ebay downpipe and exhaust, or just no exhaust at all

[At-Least-It's-An-Evo]

What is your REAL goal for this car? Mightas well do it all at once. With all that, mightas well just do a 6765 setup on a built bottom end w/ a stock head/mildly modded head. Call it good and just go from there. Anyone who knows me though knows I think the steps between that are meh.

[v8klla]

Wiseco makes a shelf stock piston in 9:1, and we've built many motors with standard Wiseco's without a known failure. Standard Wiseco / Eagle will be more than enough for your goals, you would be wasting money on HD's in my opinion, but what do I know

[Super Bleeder!!]

My drop-in wisecos have cracks in their skirts, and they were never abused or assembled poorly. I measured everything, broke in the motor correctly and had shane tune it.

Still, cracks showed up. Googling shows i'm not alone with this issue.

If you're going wiseco, get the HDs. Otherwise get a better piston like Ross, CP, etc.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

What are you trying to do with the car? Do you need low/mid range torque/spoolup?
All out power? Why are you building a motor?

A stock 2G head will usually beat a ported 1G head in powerband and peak power until you get into some big turbos. Porting a head, adding oversize valves, doing a 1g head vs a 2g will all hurt your spoolup and low/mid range power. Yes, a ported 1G head can beat a 2G, but unless you are trying to make 800+whp I would possibly go with a 2g head. Some of the big power guys like Kiggly run 2G heads, the 2G head is closer to the Evo head, which also have small ports. Big cfm numbers/big flow make power at very high rpms/very high power but will hurt power on a 16G.

Don't get the 1600s. Get FIC 1350s or FIC 2150s. The 1550s/1600s/1650s are junk.

The normal Wiseco's have well known cracking problems, unless they fixed that in the last couple years.

[turbotalon1g]

You don't want my vote on this one. injectors I would say 1450s and a single pump should be enough.

i got 40psi out of my 16g a few times 37psi was the normal spike. 272s would rock.

1g head vs. 2g head, if u have a 2g then do it if not I've been informed not really worth the trouble.

[Constant_Project21]

Figure I spend my lunch break answering a few of you folks haha.

Josh, bunch of questions, a lot of which have been answered haha.
What are your tuning options?
Going to be using DSMlink v3
Are you using a 1g head or a 2g head?
Was stated, the original plan was a 1g head...debating that now
How high are you reving?
No more than 8000
What intake/exhaust manifolds are you using?
Stock 1g intake manifold, fp race manifold.
Do you plan on keeping the 16g forever? Evo 16g?
Nope, just for the rest of the summer, then hopefully buy an fp30xx during the winter downtime.
How long is "for now"?
^^^answered above
Why an external gate?
Cause the 16g I have is setup for it already, the wastegate hole has been welded shut. Plus less to buy when it's time to switch to the bigger turbo.
What boost levels are you trying to run?
Pretty much maxxing out the 16g, so 26-28psi, 30psi max.
How much "bigger" do you plan on going?
Ideally, an fp3052 or 3065
What are your overall power goals?
Reliable 400hp, maybe upwards of 500 when the turbo is upgraded
DSMlink is a good system, which version?
V3
Do you have a wideband?
One of the first things on the list to buy
Will you be doing any tuning or having a professional do it?
Professional, tuning is something thats new to me, and completely foreign.

Originally Posted by Halon

I like the HD Wiseco's, but man it is serious overkill for your setup. I don't really know about the Manley pistons but they seem affordable and may be worth looking into. ExtremePSI shows them in both 8.5 and 9.0 ratios. I personally would go with 8.5 because I feel it will only assist in making tuning simpler, and well if you want more power, just add more boost!

Is there something wrong with the motor, because really it seems like the money spent building the bottom end could be wisely spent elsewhere since you're going to be on a 16g setup.

Everyone will have their own opinions, and it's your choice in the end to decide what is best for you. Good luck with the build!!!

I would ideally like to overbuild the motor, so that it can handle whatever needs to be thrown at it. The current motor is blown, so its time for a new one. 16g setup may only be for a month or so, so that's why I'm building up.

Originally Posted by jrohner

But running a 16G means you can't really run much boost on top end; 30 at most even with all the tweaks and 'tricks'. I would go 9:1 if you want to save a little money, otherwise 10:1 custom pistons. He's going to run E85, so it can handle it fine.

I do agree on running the 2G head.

I think the BC272 cams are the perfect match for a 16G, no big loss of off-boost power, same spool as stock cams, more power and torque everywhere. They seem to make the most of the 16G, bigger cams will just trade off torque and spool for maybe a few more unnoticed hp. It doesn't pay to lose a bunch of torque with a turbo that's basically known for torque and mid range power. The torque hit is what makes the 16G so fun; I regret getting bigger cams for my car.

Save the extra expense and parts of an external gate and just get a higher pressure WGA, such as a Holset one, so you can hold a few more PSI on the top end. Ebay downpipe and exhaust, or just no exhaust at all

That's why I wanted to do a 9:1, get that little extra compression, and still be able to go a bit bigger. I want to get everything I can out of the 16g, which would be the reasoning for higher comp.
I will look into BC272's, a friend of mine uses them, and likes them.
Turbo is setup for a EWG, and I already have the exhaust.

Originally Posted by At-Least-It's-An-Evo

What is your REAL goal for this car? Mightas well do it all at once. With all that, mightas well just do a 6765 setup on a built bottom end w/ a stock head/mildly modded head. Call it good and just go from there. Anyone who knows me though knows I think the steps between that are meh.

Summer DD, street/strip car. I don't want to do anything that big, that sounds like too deep of a money pit for me.

Originally Posted by v8klla

Wiseco makes a shelf stock piston in 9:1, and we've built many motors with standard Wiseco's without a known failure. Standard Wiseco / Eagle will be more than enough for your goals, you would be wasting money on HD's in my opinion, but what do I know

Thanks for the info boss, but I have seen A LOT of wiseco issues this past year. The HD's would be an extra precaution.

Originally Posted by Super Bleeder!!

My drop-in wisecos have cracks in their skirts, and they were never abused or assembled poorly. I measured everything, broke in the motor correctly and had shane tune it.

Still, cracks showed up. Googling shows i'm not alone with this issue.

If you're going wiseco, get the HDs. Otherwise get a better piston like Ross, CP, etc.

Have heard this as well.

Originally Posted by ecoli

What are you trying to do with the car? Do you need low/mid range torque/spoolup?
All out power? Why are you building a motor?

A stock 2G head will usually beat a ported 1G head in powerband and peak power until you get into some big turbos. Porting a head, adding oversize valves, doing a 1g head vs a 2g will all hurt your spoolup and low/mid range power. Yes, a ported 1G head can beat a 2G, but unless you are trying to make 800+whp I would possibly go with a 2g head. Some of the big power guys like Kiggly run 2G heads, the 2G head is closer to the Evo head, which also have small ports. Big cfm numbers/big flow make power at very high rpms/very high power but will hurt power on a 16G.

Don't get the 1600s. Get FIC 1350s or FIC 2150s. The 1550s/1600s/1650s are junk.

The normal Wiseco's have well known cracking problems, unless they fixed that in the last couple years.

A fun DD summer car, that I can take to the track and have fun with too. I enjoy the low/mid ranged spoolup on the street, which is why I don't want anything too huge for a turbo. Building a motor to help me sleep at night. I understand stock dsm motors can take a beating, but that extra reassurance (paired with a good tune), would make me feel better about my setup.
I will definatley look into using a 2g head. And as for injectors, I have a set of 1600's, maybe I should start looking for new, less huge injectors.

Originally Posted by turbotalon1g

You don't want my vote on this one. injectors I would say 1450s and a single pump should be enough.

i got 40psi out of my 16g a few times 37psi was the normal spike. 272s would rock.

1g head vs. 2g head, if u have a 2g then do it if not I've been informed not really worth the trouble.

Thanks, Aaron. And 40psi?!?! Jesus...haha. 272's of some kind will be my choice in the end.

[Halon]

Sounds like you have a decent plan then.

So in the end I'd just make sure you spend the money wisely, which planning ahead like you are doing now will help with.

HD's are great pistons, and are definately "overbuilt" for you as you stated you wanted anyway. But money could be saved by going with those manley's (again I have no experience with them) or other cheaper proven pistons like were menioned (Ross, Mahle, etc). But like I and others said, I'd personaly opt against the standard Wiseco's.

Eagle rods are going to be more then fine for your goals.

272 cams. Im still a fan of the very much proven HKS's. Find a set of good condition used ones and they should be decently priced, and you'll be good for years to come. If you do plan to rev semi high, you may want to consider some better springs just to "help you sleep" as you put it. Stock springs aren't aweful, but if we're talking about a head with 120k miles, those stock springs may not be like new anymore. Some cheap crower springs would be affordable, and would again work for plenty of years to come, as long as you don't go to some more extreme cam setup.

I think you're going to end up with a pretty strong platform that you'll be able to build upon in the future and will withstand a lot of abuse.

One thing not mentioned, that is becomming more important to me, is ensuring you get a good seal on your head/block. Consider L19's and a decent headgasket. Once you go to a larger turbo setup and higher boost levels, you start to run into head lifting issues. If you get a nice good seal from the get go with strong fastners and a good HG, then you hopefully won't have to worry about that ever.

[1ViciousGSX]

Those injectors will be rough to tune at idle, too big, especially for a 2.0L. Don't regrind the cams, just pick up a good set of used HKS 272's for a couple of dollars more.

[Constant_Project21]

Originally Posted by Halon

One thing not mentioned, that is becomming more important to me, is ensuring you get a good seal on your head/block. Consider L19's and a decent headgasket. Once you go to a larger turbo setup and higher boost levels, you start to run into head lifting issues. If you get a nice good seal from the get go with strong fastners and a good HG, then you hopefully won't have to worry about that ever.

AH yes, the headgasket/headstud combo. I will be adressing that issue as well. Wouldn't spend all that time and money, just to toss a crap headgasket on there haha. Most likely will be using a set of MAP heavy duty headstuds, paired with a permatorque or maybe just an MLS (seeing as the head and block will be resurfaced).

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Those injectors will be rough to tune at idle, too big, especially for a 2.0L. Don't regrind the cams, just pick up a good set of used HKS 272's for a couple of dollars more.

Hmm, well I may have to look into other injectors then. Seems that there is a consensus that 1600's aren't the way to go. I had comtemplated just getting a set of delta regrinds, as people have been seeing some good results with them. When the time comes, I will be looking for a set of used hks cams, as I did like the 264's I had in my car.

Once again, thanks everyone for the input, really appreciate it!

[turbotalon1g]

The only issue that 1600s have is the cruise miss. Idle is no problem I got them to idle with BC280s perfectly.