Climate Change - Stop the bullshit already.

[tpunx99GSX]

I agree with a lot of your points, except the assumption that we do not know if we are in a high or low point. We do through the many tools they are using such as testing ice cores and other samples.
A 1* difference can actually have a significant impact. Remember we are talking about global averages, not the swing of weather. A 1* difference may not make a difference to humans, but plants, animals and insects it will affect such as migratory patterns.

I think the focus of talks needs to shift on a global scale and not a country scale, and the UN needs to be the driving force in this. While countries like China and Indonesia, and india are becoming some of the largest polluters, we cannot let our own get out of control as we are the ones consuming the products they are producing. So it is a US problem as well as a problem for China. we are the demand they are the supply.

Man made can come in many forms, not just automobiles, Autos are something that is the easiest to change. As americans we see the benefit not just from the environment but from the fact that we save at the pump by getting better gas mileage. So its an easy change for the administration to say "All auto manufacturers need to be above x mpg by this date" it gives a decent return for the environment and americans will hopefully welcome it with savings at the pump.
The other forms of human involvement is the use of fertilizers, Livestock overproduction (methane), dirty energies, and other stuff are more problematic to try and change. But regardless we need to on a global scale to set the precedent for other countries. This is a good change to show the world we are an innovator, not just a consumer.

[tpunx99GSX]

Freeman Dyson is a fucking loon. He has long been known in the industry as not an innovator but a theoretical physist who doesnt live in this world.
He was one of the bright guys who thought this was a good idea...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29
and also this
"I consider it likely that we shall have “genetically engineered carbon-eating trees” within twenty years, and almost certainly within fifty years.
Carbon-eating trees could convert most of the carbon that they absorb from the atmosphere into some chemically stable form and bury it underground. Or they could convert the carbon into liquid fuels and other useful chemicals. Biotechnology is enormously powerful, capable of burying or transforming any molecule of carbon dioxide that comes into its grasp…. If one quarter of the world’s forests were replanted with carbon-eating varieties of the same species, the forests would be preserved as ecological resources and as habitats for wildlife, and the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere would be reduced by half in about fifty years."

Please choose a better example. you probably wont find one.

[A//// Guy]

http://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-1280x800.jpg

To deny humans are increasing problem is having blinders on.... http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ Also for politicians to keep pull a curtain over all this info we are discussing, is nuts. Since Nasa even supports human climate change and is a govt entity.

[1ViciousGSX]

Lol, loon or not, he has a valid point. CO2 is needed for plant life to produce oxygen.
Don't know about the "genetic trees" thing, never saw that. But, all plant life consumes carbon dioxide.

Take a look into the "Atlantic Converyor" to understand climate temperature fluctuations.

[A//// Guy]

Obviously green life lives off C02... the issue is that its increasing past the norm over centuries, where does it stop?

Viscous, can you really state that all the "pollution" from cars, factories, etc has no affect on the world as a whole? Sure it makes the world economy go round, but that's not the point.

[JET]

I agree with a lot of your points, except the assumption that we do not know if we are in a high or low point. We do through the many tools they are using such as testing ice cores and other samples.
A 1* difference can actually have a significant impact. Remember we are talking about global averages, not the swing of weather. A 1* difference may not make a difference to humans, but plants, animals and insects it will affect such as migratory patterns.

I think the focus of talks needs to shift on a global scale and not a country scale, and the UN needs to be the driving force in this. While countries like China and Indonesia, and india are becoming some of the largest polluters, we cannot let our own get out of control as we are the ones consuming the products they are producing. So it is a US problem as well as a problem for China. we are the demand they are the supply.

Man made can come in many forms, not just automobiles, Autos are something that is the easiest to change. As americans we see the benefit not just from the environment but from the fact that we save at the pump by getting better gas mileage. So its an easy change for the administration to say "All auto manufacturers need to be above x mpg by this date" it gives a decent return for the environment and americans will hopefully welcome it with savings at the pump.
The other forms of human involvement is the use of fertilizers, Livestock overproduction (methane), dirty energies, and other stuff are more problematic to try and change. But regardless we need to on a global scale to set the precedent for other countries. This is a good change to show the world we are an innovator, not just a consumer.

If you look at the chart I posted above you can see the greenhouse emissions by the US is at the same level from 1990 and is in a slow downward trend. I think the US is doing quite well. We obviously are one of the leaders in this area when you look at the size of our economy and the amount of gasses we produce.

Yes the climate has changed by 1*F in 150 years, but we know it has changed much more drastically than that in the past without any human intervention. Remember the Ice Ages? If you look at the very long term global temps you will see we are actually at a very low point! This is not what the Global Warming Scare Machine wants to you look at though.

http://geology.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/ice_ages1.gif

[tpunx99GSX]

Lol, loon or not, he has a valid point. CO2 is needed for plant life to produce oxygen.
Don't know about the "genetic trees" thing, never saw that. But, all plant life consumes carbon dioxide.

Take a look into the "Atlantic Converyor" to understand climate temperature fluctuations.
Mars is a very good example of what happens when you have TOO much Co2, which is the point, too much CO2 will kill off plantlife as is the case with mars.
There is a reason that when nasa looks for goldilocks planets they rule out planets that has an atmosphere with too much CO2. (and yes they can tell what the atmosphere is made of by using a spectrograph when the planet passes in front of a star).

[tpunx99GSX]

If you look at the chart I posted above you can see the greenhouse emissions by the US is at the same level from 1990 and is in a slow downward trend. I think the US is doing quite well. We obviously are one of the leaders in this area when you look at the size of our economy and the amount of gasses we produce.

Yes the climate has changed by 1*F in 150 years, but we know it has changed much more drastically than that in the past without any human intervention. Remember the Ice Ages? If you look at the very long term global temps you will see we are actually at a very low point! This is not what the Global Warming Scare Machine wants to you look at though.

http://geology.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/ice_ages1.gif

The map you posted is kinda decieving. Lets take this one and data analysis from Nasa: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page3.php
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/images/proxy-based_temperature_reconstruction.png
"Models predict that Earth will warm between 2 and 6 degrees Celsius in the next century. When global warming has happened at various times in the past two million years, it has taken the planet about 5,000 years to warm 5 degrees. The predicted rate of warming for the next century is at least 20 times faster. This rate of change is extremely unusual."

More supporting material
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page4.php

[curt_gendron]

I totally agree with what JET is saying. Looking at temps over the last 150 years and trying to predict a trend is just laughable. The earth is billions of years old. 150 years worth of data means nothing. Now I realize you guys have posted some cute graphs on temperatures beyond 150 years, but that data is probably making some assumptions and approximations. So its guess work at best. Our real record keeping only goes back to the 1800s.

With that being said, I do believe humans are causing a lot of pollution and we need to fix it. CO2 levels are too high, plus a lot of other issues. But there just isn't enough data out there to know if this pollution is really causing the temps to increase. And if it is, by how much?

later,
Curt

[1ViciousGSX]

Obviously green life lives off C02... the issue is that its increasing past the norm over centuries, where does it stop?

Viscous, can you really state that all the "pollution" from cars, factories, etc has no affect on the world as a whole?

Of course not.

But the planet has many, many systems in place to deal with it. There have been many natural dissasters thoughout history that were immediately more devistating to the climate than mankind ever was/is, and yet here we are.

In looking around at what the "Do as We Say, Not as We Do" crowd that keeps pushing this agenda of "Climate Change" does in their personal lives, you can't but wonder how much of it is a scam.

But lets do a little reality check.
We had "Global Warming" models 20-30 years ago that said we would basically be dead by now or living in flooded areas because the ocean levels would have risen to extreme levels, covering up most of the USA.
We were told by ManPigBear (Al Gore) that by now there would be no more ice caps because they would have all melted away, yet we have record growth and record cooling. This coming from a man who built a home in Tenn. that uses 20 times the resources of the average American home. It's almost like he forgot what solar, wind and thermal energy was.
Cars run cleaner than they ever have. Any industrial factory built in the USA in the past 20 years are cleaner than ever, in some cases the air and water coming out of them are cleaner than what goes in.

So yeah, call me a skeptic, but I'll believe it when I see it.