ECU and Tubo options

flametail · 11-15-2006

I haven't seen anything about this so I figure the ECU doesn't have to be adapted or tweaked if you add a larger turbo...but, if i decide to upgrade the turbo, what kind should I get? I don't plan on making an obsurd amount of HP and I would rather it be kinda inexpensive (not cheap). What numbers would I be seeing with different turbos and what are the pros/cons of the different turbos?

niterydr · 11-15-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by flametail

I haven't seen anything about this so I figure the ECU doesn't have to be adapted or tweaked if you add a larger turbo...but, if i decide to upgrade the turbo, what kind should I get? I don't plan on making an obsurd amount of HP and I would rather it be kinda inexpensive (not cheap). What numbers would I be seeing with different turbos and what are the pros/cons of the different turbos?

Anytime you increase the airflow into our out of a motor you will need additional tuning. Fortunally for this market there are plenty of piggybacks that work very well with most basic turbo upgrades.
There is a huge variety of turbo's you can upgrade to. What is your goal with the vehicle?

rst95eclipse · 11-15-2006

It's just me, but I wouldn't go with a "hack" style system to increase the amount of fuel your motor will see. I'm definately a supporter of DSMLink, whether it's a 9 second beast or daily driver with an upgraded turbo. If you plan on it just to be a fun car, an Evo 16g or possibly even a 50 trim would be great. But if you look into the numbers, you might as well just spend a few hundred more and get a 60 trim or a GT-30R. But of course you'll need supporting mods, so it's all based upon your goals and plans for the car.

carltalon · 11-15-2006

The DSM Link is great, but isnt in eveyones price range. SAFC's, EPROM chips. Etc. are a great option for most daily drivin DSM's.

flametail · 11-15-2006

the car will be a daily driver, and all mods will be done by me and my dad. I've read quite a bit about the 16g and I think that's about as big as I'll be going for a turbo when/if I upgrade. What needs to be done to accomidate for the 16g?

**scheides** · 11-15-2006

it is the same size (on the outside) of the stock 1G turbo, the 14b, so on a 1G it will bolt right up. On a 2G, you need a few extra pieces, but it will basically fit too. I have a 16g on my 2G right now and it's awesome! Best bang for your buck will be the evo3 16g (MHI). They can be had for as little as $450 and people have made 300whp with them pretty regularly.

niterydr · 11-15-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by rst95eclipse

It's just me, but I wouldn't go with a "hack" style system to increase the amount of fuel your motor will see. I'm definately a supporter of DSMLink, whether it's a 9 second beast or daily driver with an upgraded turbo. If you plan on it just to be a fun car, an Evo 16g or possibly even a 50 trim would be great. But if you look into the numbers, you might as well just spend a few hundred more and get a 60 trim or a GT-30R. But of course you'll need supporting mods, so it's all based upon your goals and plans for the car.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but all the DSMLINK does is hack the factory ecu code.
The fuel adjustment is very similar as an S-afc (that is setup correctly), the only advantage is the timing control (almost).

Flaimtail- It looks like you are looking for a very basic setup (but very effective).
Injectors, fuel pump, good airflow sensor, S-afc or dsmlink or eprom tuned ecu, exhaust, 02 housing, intake, evo 16g, maybe a fmic, headstuds..your good to go.
Oh and a clutch, can't forget that.
I take it this is on a 1g? So you'll be fine with an oil feed and drain upgrade, and a 2g mas swap. I"d recommend something in the 580cc-680cc range for injectors and a street core sized fmic to go well with the 16g.
Headstuds are a must if you are going to go over 17psi, and if the motor has some mileage on it, you might as well do a timing belt and headgasket while you are there.
As far as racing is concerned, you can also use a 4 bolt rear end (91's come with a 3 bolt), and probably suspension as well.
You can also add a ported 2g manifold or an evo manifold while you are putting on the turbo.

flametail · 11-15-2006

niterydr, you are pretty much correct on your assumption about what I want, something reliable and effective. I'm gonna have to replace the head gasket and probably the timing belt anyways b/c I have to swap the engine from a FWD into the AWD I plan to get. For all the info on the car go here: http://www.dsmstyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13563
I was planning on going along with Mach V's (www.machv.com) suggested stages for upgrading. They pretty much say to change everything you stated.

**Goat Blower** · 11-15-2006

Just don't buy any parts from Mach V, they're nice guys but hella expensive.

flametail · 11-15-2006

I've been searching around and found 2 sites I'll more then likely use:
MAPerformance and Road Race Engineering

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 11-15-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr

Sorry to burst your bubble, but all the DSMLINK does is hack the factory ecu code.
The fuel adjustment is very similar as an S-afc (that is setup correctly), the only advantage is the timing control (almost).

The way DSMLink handles fuel is not like an AFC at all. With an AFC all you are doing is altering the Hz sent from the MAS to the ECU, which puts it into the wrong load cells, if you have bigger than stock injectors.

With DSMLink you have a global fuel setting, to generally compensate for larger injectors. That changes the injector size value in the ECU, so that you can run big injectors without all the loads getting way out of wack.

Then you have dead time, mostly to help your fuel trims at idle/very low injector pulse width when you have bigger injectors that don't respond as fast. That changes the battery offset/fuel injector deadtime table in the ECU.

Then you have the fuel sliders, which are essentially changing the top half of the ECU's fuel table. They only do anything under higher load/boost, because the ECU only uses the fuel table when it's in open loop.

Then you have the MAF compensation/MAF settings table that you can use to fine tune the MAF during closed loop and open loop operation to get your A/Fs inline at any low to medium-high load situation.

And if you are maxing out your MAF, then you can go into the VE compensation table and then have almost treat the car like an AEM or Motec running boost compensation under extremly high loads.

flametail · 11-15-2006

wow, it's like you typed all of that in a foreign language! It looked like words, but it also looked like random letters placed in random groups...

Jakey · 11-15-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by flametail

wow, it's like you typed all of that in a foreign language! It looked like words, but it also looked like random letters placed in random groups...

It may be a complex topic, but Shane (ecoli) is as top-notch as it gets.

flametail · 11-16-2006

I'm sure he is.

niterydr · 11-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecoli

The way DSMLink handles fuel is not like an AFC at all. With an AFC all you are doing is altering the Hz sent from the MAS to the ECU, which puts it into the wrong load cells, if you have bigger than stock injectors.

With DSMLink you have a global fuel setting, to generally compensate for larger injectors. That changes the injector size value in the ECU, so that you can run big injectors without all the loads getting way out of wack.

Then you have dead time, mostly to help your fuel trims at idle/very low injector pulse width when you have bigger injectors that don't respond as fast. That changes the battery offset/fuel injector deadtime table in the ECU.

Then you have the fuel sliders, which are essentially changing the top half of the ECU's fuel table. They only do anything under higher load/boost, because the ECU only uses the fuel table when it's in open loop.

Then you have the MAF compensation/MAF settings table that you can use to fine tune the MAF during closed loop and open loop operation to get your A/Fs inline at any low to medium-high load situation.

And if you are maxing out your MAF, then you can go into the VE compensation table and then have almost treat the car like an AEM or Motec running boost compensation under extremly high loads.

Very true, but in the end it is hacking the stock ecu and has to conform to the stock parameters. That is what I was getting at I guess I wasn't clear enough. Going back and reading my post, it does sound like I am saying they are the same, but they aren't.
However, dsmlink isn't a true standalone like everyone in the DSMLINK community likes to think. It still has to operate within some factory parameters. They keep making revisions and the system keeps getting better and better, but it is not the same.
I am well aware how a S-afc and dsmlink work, but the post is nice for the archives! That way when this thread gets buried, people can go back and dig up what everything does on the Dsmlink. Good post, I was entirely to lazy to go into detail.
One thing though, a S-afc does not ALWAYS put it into the wrong load cells if you are not using that much adjustment on the S-afc...I figured I would clear that up, as this thread will probably get archived.
Granted the DSMLINK is a great option for 90% of the dsmer's out there, but 50% of those don't need anything more than a S-afc and maf-t or 2g mas.