Blown turbo cause of bad motor? WTF Now?

howslowcanyougo · 10-20-2005

Ok here's the history, of my latest DSM nightmare.......

98 Tsi, AWD, A/TDSMLINK, PLXM300, 650 FIC's, FMIC, 7 bolt, 80K 2nd owner.

Bought a "Bastard 20G" from Slowboy back on June 17.

Installed it without issue except when I ran boost leak tests, I could here oil bubbling, like air was leaking past the seal?

Some here on dsmstyle <and SBR> said it was normal, some said the seal was junk?

I ran the car maybe 10 times in 3 months before I heard a loud PSSSSST, lost boost, and started blowing blue smoke about 90 days later at the start of Oct.

Again, always fresh mobil1, fresh filter, SS line off filter housing.

I talked to "Craiger" at SBR and he said to pull it and ship it back to them with the history.

I called him yesterday, and asked him what SBR is going to do for me on this $1000 3 month old turbo?? The following is the reply and pics I just recieved from him today:

Howie,

Something went thru your turbine wheel sir. I can not warranty something that had an object shot through it or left inside the turbine housing during install.

I apologize in advance but you can see from the turbine wheel shots attached that either a piece of a valve, something small was left in the turbine housing during install went through the turbine housing and caused the problems you see in the pictures.

A new shaft, some rebuild parts and assembly would be 400 dollars.

thank you,

Cragger

I guess my first concern is that a valve or whatever else didn't let loose? Is this typical? I've never heard of this kind of failure? What's your take?, Do you all think this is just BS, cause they just don't want to pay up or? Don't seem like even if shit flew threw it it would cause major shaft play would it? What's next? Pull the VC and inspect what? Maybe a leak down first or?

Would you take the offer of the $400 rebuid or just pick up "Tommy Gun's" T28?

When will the DSM pain ever end.........:-<

Thanks guys.......

Howie

A//// Guy · 10-20-2005

The pain will end when you sell the car... As for the turbo, obviously something went through it on the turbine side and wore it away. Could have been a chunk of something you left in it or something that fell in under install- small chunk of metal etc.

My original 14b on my old car looked like that and worse after about 160k miles of abuse... actually the turbo really spin thats how worn out it was.

Peices of valves do not really come off... but I guess anythings possible.

I would do a compression test just to make sure the cylinders are fine, and then find a new turbo to throw on. I would prolly buy something cheap like a 14b or maybe Toms t28 if its cheap... just in case there is something wrong with the engine.

Did you say that there was excessive shaft play when you took it off? Becuase if so, then maybe the wheel was hitting the housing and thats why it looks like that...

howslowcanyougo · 10-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by M/// Guy

Did you say that there was excessive shaft play when you took it off? Becuase if so, then maybe the wheel was hitting the housing and thats why it looks like that...

Yeah, Thanks Peter, That's what I was thinking, so if the seal barring-failed and started the shaft wobbling, then the edges of the tubine would look just like this.

Also I KNOW I didn't leave any damm parts just laying in the turbine side, I treated that turbo like GOLD! <cause it was!>

I ran it for 10 different times without ANY kind of weird sounds or issues from this turbo, THEN it all let go without ANY kind of warning?

Either I did loose a valve or another peice of shit flew through, or this SBR Turbo that had a bad seal from the begining, just lost it's berring and wobbled and ground off the wheel.

Guess I need to do a leak down first and if it's good, come to the reality that SBR probably just screwed me on this whole deal.

Any other thoughts?

TIA.........

Jakey · 10-21-2005

To me it sounds like excessive shaft play caused the turbine wheel damage which should fall back on Slowboy's lap. I don't see how Craggar's installation theory can be true since you ran the car without issues with the Bastard installed. Do you have another turbo you can slap on over the weekend for a quick check to see how your car runs with a different turbo? If I were you I'd wait till Sunday night and see what kind of opinions people post here and then give Slowboy a call Monday morning. Craggar will probably continue to blame it on you since the last thing he is going to want to do is admit a SBR fuck up. If that happens, I would ask to speak directly to Mike Huml as I sure as hell would thing he will have the final call since he owns SBR.

howslowcanyougo · 10-21-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakey

To me it sounds like excessive shaft play caused the turbine wheel damage which should fall back on Slowboy's lap. I don't see how Craggar's installation theory can be true since you ran the car without issues with the Bastard installed. Do you have another turbo you can slap on over the weekend for a quick check to see how your car runs with a different turbo? If I were you I'd wait till Sunday night and see what kind of opinions people post here and then give Slowboy a call Monday morning. Craggar will probably continue to blame it on you since the last thing he is going to want to do is admit a SBR fuck up. If that happens, I would ask to speak directly to Mike Huml as I sure as hell would thing he will have the final call since he owns SBR.

Thanks for your expert input jakey.....just looking for a consenses now.....

I either need to finish the leak down or buy <rent?> a cheap turbo for an hour to verify the motors really ok, Anyone wanna bum me a 14b or whatever for an hour or so? help?

Outlaw1 · 10-21-2005

Doesn't look like a turbo bearing failing. Looks like something went into the exaust wheel. A turbo bearing failure would be gradual, not instant like that stuff in the pictures. Did the turbo have a bunch of slop in it when you pulled it off? Pull the plugs and inspect them. You'll probably find something busted.

sleepydsm · 10-21-2005

I had a 3" piece of rubber alternator belt sucked into the intake side of my 20G (dont ask) and the compressor wheel looked WORSE than that wheel. I didn't know rubber put up a good fight against metal. And I have heard of people loosing valves, taking out turbine blades or wheels. In fact, when I went to pick up my rebuilt 20G a trucker was there with his "air pump" because he shot a valve... and took out a few blades. Anyways, that definately does not look like a shaft play issue. Just looking at how the blade is worn, and especially since there is a nice u shape in the blades. If it was from shaft play, as said above, I assume it'd be more gradual, and the blade would be more evenly worn, and not as bad as that!

**scheides** · 10-21-2005

I'll follow up with super4x4, is there any shaft play? If there's no shaft play then something probably went through the turbine. If there is shaft play, then it's still possible the bearing failed, let loose, and the turbine slopped around the inside of the turbine housing (although it'd have to be pretty excessive shaft play for that to happen).

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 10-21-2005

When something goes through the turbo and does that kind of damage, it often blows the seals also since the shaft gets so tweaked when the wheel slams into whatever.

Does the compressor side look as bad? I would think that if all the damage was caused by up and down shaft play from blown seals or a bad build, then the compressor wheel would be eaten up also.

I have seen turbos that look almost that bad work fine also. I made 460whp with a turbo that looked like that, except for that one really bad fin of yours. I pulled a turbo off a car once that had a good sized nut logged in the exhaust wheel, I had no idea where that came from. Which came first, the chicken or the egg is your problem. 20Gs are usually almost bullet proof.

Any chance you had an EGT probe that fell apart? Or were you running too low of timing too much from a timing belt being a tooth off, base timing too low, lots of knock retarding the timing under boost, too much use of anti-lag or whatever and ended up melting the turbine wheel.

Outlaw1 · 10-21-2005

I was kinda fuzzy on what exactly happened in the first place so I pulled the first post. After reading that, I'd say something broke and took the turbo out. The "LOUD blowoff" sound you heard was probably something breaking and heading into the turbo. Also, I doubt the noise you heard when doing a boost leak test was air going past the oil ring on the turbo shaft. It was probably oil going past your rings in a cylinder that had some intake valves open.

Quote:

Originally Posted by howslowcanyougo

Believe it or not I was driving my Godson to Church this morning and boosting a little bit cause we were running late, and then suddenly I heard a LOUD blowoff sound except my foot wasn't off the gas! Then the car started stumbeling, running slow and weak for the next mile or so to our Church. I thought that I just lost a IC clamp or just caught a large boost leak, but my wife said I was starting to blow blue smoke? I got the car back home, and gave it a once over and couldnt see any clear boost leaks or couplers-clamps hanging off etc. I took the intake off to start a boost leak test and checked for shaft play and the damm 90 day old $1000 turbo is loose as a goose, with the shaft play is now wobbly as hell. I really did wonder about the integrity of this turbo from day one as whenever you'd run a boostleak test you could here air bubbling in the oil pan as it blew by the seals. I just spent most of Sat finally installing the PLXM300, and finally was ready for a nice tune, and now this crap! Anyway, that's the emotional vent, here's the real question: Has anyone else had any issues with Slowboy's Turbo's? and or service from "Crager?" Damm I really hope they do the righ thing here and at least repair it? Think they will they stand by their work?

Comments welcome....?

TIA.....Howie

Outlaw1 · 10-21-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecoli

When something goes through the turbo and does that kind of damage, it often blows the seals also since the shaft gets so tweaked when the wheel slams into whatever.

I think the majority of the people (excluding yourself, ecoli) have a misconception that the turbo has a standard seal like you'd see on an engine somewhere. This "seal" gets blamed for lots of turbo problems. It's kinda hard to visualize, but a typical turbo shaft is supported by two bearings and has two oil control rings, a bearing and oil ring on the compressor side and a bearing and oil ring on the exaust side. That's basically the whole turbo as far as moving parts go. If the bearings are still tight and keep the shaft spinning on a single plane, the oil rings typically don't let much oil get past them. They don't really "wear out". Now if trash goes through the oil system causing the bearings to wear, bearings get sloppy, the shaft wobbles around and the oil rings don't have a constant surface to seal against. Oil will spew past them. There's not really many parts inside a turbo to mess up. Keep fresh clean oil to them and don't shut the engine off (shutting the oiling system down) while the turbo is spinning 100,000 rpms and your turbo should have a long happy life.

niterydr · 10-21-2005

I would also be inclined to bet something went through it, be it motor damage, or something left over during install (or something melted).
Unless the comp wheel is toast, then it could be a build issue.

A//// Guy · 10-21-2005

Yea now that I read about the "loud blowoff" sound, I think something went throught he turbine wheel. Maybe sparkplug peice or the EGT or something else.

If the wheel was hitting the housing then like they said, the compressor wheel should look the same.

howslowcanyougo · 10-21-2005

There was lke Zero damage to the Comp wheel which would point away from the seals and to something letting loose in the motor?

Gonna pull the plugs and try atleast a comp test tonight.

I'll repost then with my results.

Many Thanks to all the great input!

Outlaw1 · 10-21-2005

Don't spin the engine over to test the compresion without plugging the oil feed line for the turbo or you will spray oil everywhere. And take pics of the broken stuff!

Quote:

Originally Posted by howslowcanyougo

There was lke Zero damage to the Comp wheel which would point away from the seals and to something letting loose in the motor?

Gonna pull the plugs and try atleast a comp test tonight.

I'll repost then with my results.

Many Thanks to all the great input!

**1ViciousGSX** · 10-21-2005

Since you already have the turbo off the engine, pull the exhaust manifold and look into the exhaust ports on the head. If something went wrong in the engine there will be indications of it in the exhaust ports, whether it's oil, a bad looking valve, something caught in a valve, etc.

howslowcanyougo · 10-22-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Since you already have the turbo off the engine, pull the exhaust manifold and look into the exhaust ports on the head. If something went wrong in the engine there will be indications of it in the exhaust ports, whether it's oil, a bad looking valve, something caught in a valve, etc.

Pulled all the plugs, they looked fine, and so did the valves up inside the ports in the heads?

I can't see any indication anywhere <yet?> that "something" or anything came out of the motor and into this turbo?

So now I've been looking around for a leakdown tester here local, I can't seem to find one?

What's the real difference between a leakdown and just a compression test?

TIA.....

niterydr · 10-22-2005

Compression will tell you if the motor is good or not, a leakdown tester will tell you that, plus what is screwed up (if used properly).
You should atleast do a comp test.

howslowcanyougo · 10-30-2005

Finally got the final word from SBR.

They will rebuild this turbo like new for $400.00

It cost almost $1100 new, so I guess thats not a bad deal, except I still don't beleive it was my fault it went out and I don't want this Huge Lag monster any more!

I just bought Tom's T28 for under $300.00 should do me fine for a nice and quick spooler on this A/T car.

EclipseGST · 10-30-2005

Huge lag monster? Your talking about a 20g. You dont even know what lag is yet with that snail.