Is it me or is the Democratic Party falling apart?

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by Febo

Again see my refernce to home forclosure. But to specifically adress this with the same metaphore, you aren't going to save the farm by turning off a few light switches and shopping at Aldi.

One way or another this country needs smaller government.

Fixed it for you.

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by totaleclipse_05

They need to make the tax cuts permanent.

This ^^^

[Febo]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

Fixed it for you.

First, I am politely asking you not to "fix" my statements. I do not want my views confused with your views as they are just that, YOUR views.

Secondly, what do you define as being "smaller government." I hear this term a lot but I still do not understand exactly what it is people want to have happen?

I'm not saying the government is the right size or doing the right thing. I just think that instead of "smaller government" we need a more "responsible government"

And last but not least. I will ask AGAIN, how does it make sense to chop of the governments income when it is already in the tank? I will again bring back the metaphor of you on the brink of losing your house. You wouldn't ask for a reduction in pay. You would try to increase your income while decreasing your expenditures. It really makes no sense to hobble the government right now when we are still fighting two wars and probably about to go into a third one soon with crazy ass North Korea. Lets not weaken the government and make us more bankrupt. Instead lets all think about what will be best for America as a whole. What does this mean? It means that yes, we need to cut some social services. Yes, government should stop trying to reach so far. Yes, it should spend responsibly. But this also means that No, we should not cut taxes. No, they should not be permanent. I'm sorry people, but realize what we are to the government. We are its paycheck. We are its bread and butter. And if we cut taxes something or someone somewhere is going to lose, and lose hard.

Who wants the soap box next?

[311evo]

Tax cuts = more spending, more spending = more jobs, more jobs = less depandance on government, less dependance on gov = less gov spending, less gov spending = smaller government with less taxes.

Smaller government is they way to go. People can work for their money, spend their money how they please, and live a merry life. Or you can have a government that pays for everything, and also takes everything. How much more money would you spend on X products if you didn't get taxes taken out of your income? or at least reduced tax. I, along with many other people, would be spending a lot more on miscellanious things which would also keep the people making those products and doing the labor in a job.

How to fix the economy, leave the money in circulation with the general public and not in the hands of the government.

Is it fair that people with jobs has to pay for people without them? no
Is it fair for people to pay for schooling when they have no children? no

People need to learn to pay for what they want, not to rely on the gov. and other taxpayers money to support them. It's all about responsibility and our money thirtsty government is setting the worst example.

Edit: of course this is my opinion of what idealy would happen. There's always multiple sides to it.

[1ViciousGSX]

Originally Posted by Febo

First, I am politely asking you not to "fix" my statements. I do not want my views confused with your views as they are just that, YOUR views.

Secondly, what do you define as being "smaller government." I hear this term a lot but I still do not understand exactly what it is people want to have happen?

I'm not saying the government is the right size or doing the right thing. I just think that instead of "smaller government" we need a more "responsible government"

And last but not least. I will ask AGAIN, how does it make sense to chop of the governments income when it is already in the tank? I will again bring back the metaphor of you on the brink of losing your house. You wouldn't ask for a reduction in pay. You would try to increase your income while decreasing your expenditures. It really makes no sense to hobble the government right now when we are still fighting two wars and probably about to go into a third one soon with crazy ass North Korea. Lets not weaken the government and make us more bankrupt. Instead lets all think about what will be best for America as a whole. What does this mean? It means that yes, we need to cut some social services. Yes, government should stop trying to reach so far. Yes, it should spend responsibly. But this also means that No, we should not cut taxes. No, they should not be permanent. I'm sorry people, but realize what we are to the government. We are its paycheck. We are its bread and butter. And if we cut taxes something or someone somewhere is going to lose, and lose hard.

Who wants the soap box next?

Don't worry, I don't think anybody would confuse your view with mine.

Smaller government means we don't need them controlling, manipulating, digging around in or messing with our daily lives. It also means we don't need a BIG BROTHER to take care of us from cradle to grave. We don't need the government starting up more entitlement programs that cost more money than they could ever develop or save. Remember the old saying, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime". Right now the government wants to supply you with your fish instead of creating a market place that spurs your ability to fish for yourself. We have a bloated government that has gotten in the business of picking winners and losers. If you are UNION, you're a winner. Not union. sorry you should have joined up.

The reason to put a lock down on government spending and income is because we can't keep going like we are without a total collapse, which may be the goal if you want to put your tin-foil hat on. I know it sounds funny to say that, but if you look at the BIG picture of everything that is going on these days, something is happening that's not so good for our country. If you look past the 14 trillion we owe and add in where we are going it get's really scary. Add the interest and we could easily be staring at a 50 trillion dollar debt we'll never pay off. And when we can't, who'll come to our defense? We can't fund our own government and military without borrowed money. So what would happen if our debtors cut off our money supply, how would we defend ourselves?

If our government was run like a business, it would have been bankrupt a long time ago. Where else can you spend lavish amounts of money unchecked, always in a deficit, never turn a profit and yet stay in business?

Funny how we keep hearing America needs to tighten it's belt, suck it up and do more with less while the people we elected to SERVE in a public office live like there's no tomorrow???

You want a strong robust and booming economy??? Reduce taxes so the poor, low/middle/upper class has expendable dollars in their pockets to do and buy the things they want. That's how you fix the economy. Not socialist programs.

[Febo]

Originally Posted by 311evo

Is it fair for people to pay for schooling when they have no children? no

You had me up until that point. We all have a vested interest in our nations education. If anything we need to pump MORE money into the education system. There is a reason America is on the shit list for world education.

[311evo]

Originally Posted by Febo

You had me up until that point. We all have a vested interest in our nations education. If anything we need to pump MORE money into the education system. There is a reason America is on the shit list for world education.

Because techers are underpaid and the gov is cutting spending on the schools and matterials? Maybe the RESPONSIBLE PARENTS should at least help pay for their childrens schooling so that it has improved quality. Have you noticed the difference in quality from a public school to a private school? That IS the problem. There isn't even a happy medium.

[Febo]

I don't actually want to even start on this... It's just not worth it.

[1ViciousGSX]

Our education system has been getting "dumbed down" for decades. An educated population is a hard population for a government to control.

[311evo]

Originally Posted by Febo

I don't actually want to even start on this... It's just not worth it.

My point is valid.

I should re-word it to say take less from the general public, and more from the people directly involved. I shouldn't say that anyone should support it, but litterally if the parent's did help out with the cost of education the education itself would be much improved.

How many times have you gotten something for free and showed it the same appreciation as something you paid for?

[mdost03]

Originally Posted by Febo

how would this actually help Americas recession?

Businesses are looking 5-10 years down the road and if these tax cuts expire again in 2 years, it's not really going to help grow the economy. It's just going to be another band aid.

Keep the tax cuts permanent + cut government spending = Win

[Febo]

Originally Posted by 311evo

My point is valid.

I should re-word it to say take less from the general public, and more from the people directly involved. I shouldn't say that anyone should support it, but litterally if the parent's did help out with the cost of education the education itself would be much improved.

How many times have you gotten something for free and showed it the same appreciation as something you paid for?

The cost of education is not cheap. So you are proposing to burden already burdened familys with this cost now? Ok Jake. You do that, let me know how your broke America turns out.

[Febo]

Originally Posted by totaleclipse_05

Businesses are looking 5-10 years down the road and if these tax cuts expire again in 2 years, it's not really going to help grow the economy. It's just going to be another band aid.

Keep the tax cuts permanent + cut government spending = Win

But are you looking at the fact that the government itself is bankrupt??

What you are proposing is to try to reduce the deficit by unburdening small bussiness and taxpayers to what avail? Hoping for a trickle up effect?

Fuck it, just let government control an industry and then noone has to pay taxes. Or only has to pay 5%. It has worked for other countries, why not us?

[Febo]

Actually I am going to get into this education bit.

If you are proposing Americans add in more money besides just their tax money into something that is meant to be provided by the government then you really only need to look at most schools these days. Parents end up having to flip the bill for a small bit of stuff.

But by demanding that people pay for what they use, or basing the education off of what the parents can put in then you are setting the country up for failure.

What will happen is you will end up establishing a social elite in the country. Much like times of old. This will only further the gap between well to do and impoverished. By furthering this gap you will only increase the dissent amongst the ranks and this will ultimately fail the country and bring down this nation. Much like the Roman Empire.

You may think that is drastic, but it is very real. Ignorance is one of the greatest enemies this nation has. Ignorance of politics, ignorance of science, ignorance of culture, ignorance of just being a decent human being.

The education system is something that NEEDS reform, and NEEDS funding no matter what. If we continue to slip on this area this nation will go nowhere fast. Even faster than it is right now.

"An educated population is a hard population for a government to control."
^ This statement.... This is just... Wow. If this was true then this wouldn't be the case...
"Newsweek's cover story this week is "The World's Best Countries." Topping that list is Finland, which is also the top ranked country in education. Second is South Korea; the magazine credits its "focus on education" for lifting it from a nation as rich as Afghanistan in the 1960s to third on its list of "economic dynamism."

How could a country prosper like that if an educated population is hard to control. Quite the opposite, and educated population is a population that is richer, more successful, more competitive on the global market, promotes less crime, and is all around more productive.

How could any of this equate to bad for the government? It can't. Please do not confuse educated with paranoid.

[polishmafia]

All I'm going to say is that Febo has caught the fire. *Single tear* Its good to see you finally taking an interest, or rather expressing it. All of your questions are valid, and this is the path you take to enlighten yourself to what is going on with our government, our economy, our lives.

Keep asking questions. Its the only way you will ask yourself more important questions.

[Febo]

I've always been opinionated Pete haha. I just would keep it on the DL. But so far this has been some decent debating. Noone has called me a liberal faggot or anything yet so its good.

[goodhart]

Originally Posted by 311evo

Because techers are underpaid and the gov is cutting spending on the schools and matterials?

Juuust though I'd point this out. Oh the irony.





Carry on.

[mdost03]

Originally Posted by Febo

But are you looking at the fact that the government itself is bankrupt??

What you are proposing is to try to reduce the deficit by unburdening small bussiness and taxpayers to what avail? Hoping for a trickle up effect?

Fuck it, just let government control an industry and then noone has to pay taxes. Or only has to pay 5%. It has worked for other countries, why not us?

If the government is bankrupt, they should not be spending as much. Simple as that. Cut spending, cut taxes, let American people keep more of their money so they can do what they want with it instead of government thinking they know what is best for all of us.

[Febo]

Originally Posted by totaleclipse_05

If the government is bankrupt, they should not be spending as much. Simple as that. Cut spending, cut taxes, let American people keep more of their money so they can do what they want with it instead of government thinking they know what is best for all of us.

Heres the issue. I agree with cutting spending on certain programs.

Here is where your logic continues to fail.

The government is bankrupt. BANKRUPT. What does this mean? It means it has an enormous DEBT that needs to be PAID and it does not have ENOUGH CASH flowing in.

How does the government get its cash flow. THROUGH TAXES.

Seriously, how is this so hard to grasp? I have used metaphors that anyone could understand.

Again, imagine YOU are bankrupt and are going to lose your sweet SRT-4. What would you do to pay off the debt owed so you can keep your car?

If you say "well I would work more" or "find a better paying job" or "work two jobs" or anything to that effect, then you have totally went against your logic for the government in every way. The government NEEDS taxes to operate. By giving money to the people you will help stimulate the economy, but you will still lynch the government on repaying its debt by cutting taxes.

In the short term we need to keep taxes constant, cut spending, and try to pay down this debt once and for all.

Again, if paying taxes does not sit well for you, then give the government an industry so they can make money. If you do not want to do either of those. Then I would like to hear your alternative. Because "Cutting taxes and smaller government" is not going to fix the pickle we are in.

I'm going to hold on to the soap box for awhile.

[1ViciousGSX]

Febo, how does the government get taxes??? Think about it.

The government gets them through sales taxes, but when people can't afford to purchase items they want the government loses that tax revenue. No sales = no sale tax collected. Although sales tax is mostly on the state level, they're going bankrupt too.

The government gets them through income taxes, but if people don't spur a healthy economy by doing and buying the things they want, income levels (both corporate and individual) come down and so does income tax revenue. But how can you spur an economy when all you go is go from pay check to pay check because of low wages and/or high taxes, high government imposed fees, etc.?

If the government is given control over all of our money, they will be picking the winners and the losers, and some of this is already happening. You think you'll rep the benefits of it, or only the elite with ties to politicians and lobbyist?

Look at history, has our government been good stewards of our money? Why give them more to throw away. You want to raise the income level for the government?? Then raise the living standards of the populous, not take more away from them.

Stop making the bottom 40% tax exempt and make everybody who earns something pay something in. Stop all of the socialist programs and make everybody responsible for their own lives.