If anyone is interested, AHP has his 1G and 2G Stage 2 FMIC kits on sale for a very good price ($695).

click here fool

talk about LONG route piping!!

Yes, he designed both for ease of installation. The 1G piping routes through the stock location similar to the Apexi and GReddy 2G kits. On the 2G kit, the inlet pipe runs around the driver's side of the radiator, and the outlet runs through the stock location. Archer is an AHP vendor and has his 2G kit on one of their shop cars and it looks VERY nice.

We're gonna be having our own kits for the 1G's here real soon. Just trying to get the end tanks finished up. They are going to be using a 24x12 core and short route piping just as the street/race cores do. Gonna be shooting for the $750-800 range complete w/ everything needed for install.

Nick

that sounds like a pretty good deal. The AHP one i noticed too seems kinda small. I'd want 24" long at the least. I think his are like 20" long. Also I don't like his endtanks. The design seems wierd, like how it comes into the intercooler on the left then goes thru and has to do UP and out of the driver side endtank. Also i don't like how noticable the welds are on his endtanks. In a way it sorta looks sloppy. And lastly, i dunno how it works for you guys since u could just drive there, but i had ordered a catback from him shipped to Arizona, and it took me about 6 months to receive it. Talk about a major pain in the ass. But i do agree that he has put a nice sale price tag on em!

Unless you are pushing 600-800 horses you will never reach teh potential of using all of the 24 inches.... an 8x16 suits almost all dsm needs. Some people think its always bigger the better. The bigger you get the less efficient it is.

Actually the efficiency will go up. The psi drop will go up slightly (all else being equal) and the amount of lag will go up too. Not to mention the extra weight and installation becoming more difficult along with a higher cost. The downside is small to a larger intercooler, except for the cost. There is, of course, a point of diminishing returns.

Do you guys thin one of those 1G stage II's will support about 450WHP? (60 trim)

Yea your right I meant power efficiency. Pressure drop etc. you will get much more power if there is less pressure drop, therefor if you have a "sweet huge" core and are making only 300 horses your actually not even making the power you could be with a "ratio sized core."
But then again if you by a small one then you have to upgrade like Jet said. How many people actually get up to 800 horses anyway ;)

It should do that fine. I don't like the piping though. The SLS is much better as far as piping goes. It will cause more lag, psi drop and weight. It is a decent price though and far superior to the SMIC. You also get to deal with AHP's infamous customer service and delivery times.

i don't see how ur lag will go up. With all that piping that you have to fill with that AHP kit vs. like an IRC kit with a bigger core with very short piping. there is much more volume to fill up in ahp's kit vs. a kit that includes even a 28" core. If i'm totally wrong then let me know, but look at how much piping is used in his kit vs. this one from slow boy racing.
http://www.slowboyracing.com/Interco...FMIC_kit_2.jpg
http://www.ahpproducts.com/sitebuild...gstage2-13.jpg

that core from slowboy is 24x3.5x12 its a bigger core yet the piping is so much shorter. much less volume to fill. i guess u guys be the judge, but that's my opinion.

Yea the long piping is not good but thats for people who just want a stock looking IC pipe and for simple instalation. Also the end tanks on the slowboy IC suck... the air is going to get trapped in the corner and the flow is going to be really poor. The ahp core with entanks will flow alot better, less pressure drop. So as far as performace they should equal out... I would think.

The Slowboy Racing core has to be the ugliest endtank design I have ever seen though in terms of looks and flow.

Unless you have a re-welded Victory Perfomance one, cause those are the ugliest.

It will. We made 410whp on a stupid Supra sidemount and Tyler with the non-VTEC LS (1.9liter 8.8:1 compression, power curve looks like a DSM) made 400whp on a tiny 20"x6"x2.25" core, but it definately would have been easier with a larger core and you have less chance of heatsoaking by the time you get to 4th gear. I would get the SLS kit. Good size core, their piping is short, thick flanges, and the best powdercoating I have ever gotten on a part.

Im still learning, and maybe this doesnt apply directly to DSMs..BUT....

One of the SRTforums members put a Perrin FMIC on his car, and the owner as well as many people were concerned on what affects it would have on his relativly stock car.

He put it on thinking there would be some turbolag, but his SOTP dyno told him no!
He went to the dyno and on lower than stock boost settings, about 13psi, he gained 16whp. Sure thats alot of money now to gain 16hp, but he did it with less boost. And when he gets the mods he wants, and cranks the boost up, im sure that larger FMIC will prove even more effective!
Heres his quote
"Bone stock:14psi-12psi at redline
211whp 239tq

Then I added:14psi-12psi to redline
VRS 3"exhaust+dp w/ cat and AEM intake
224.4hp 254.2wtq

Day before yesterday:
VRS 3" exhaust+dp w/racepipe/AEM intake/ Unorthodox UDP/ SPP 02 housing/ Rage WGA set at 14.5psi-13psi at redline
244.7whp 267.7wtq

Today:
w/ PerrinFMIC installed
VRS 3" exhaust+dp w/racepipe/AEM intake/ Unorthodox UDP/ SPP 02 housing/ Rage WGA set at 14.5psi-13psi at redline
260.7whp 279.5wtq

I picked up a total 16whp by bolting on the PerrinFMIC at the same boost level. I also picked up 13wtq and larger gains through the power band. Almost identical temps and humidity levels as 2 days prior to todays dyno. Basically we made 4 pulls. All of them were within 1-3hp of eachother. All pulls were made back to back with about 1-2min apart from eachother.

What the dyno is actually telling me is that the car is making more power, more consistently. With the stock IC dyno's done back to back the hp would drop. The car had very little cool down time from the 30 min drive to LUJAN motorsports. Bottom line is the intercooler makes power. Good power. My AFR's were 12.1-12.2. I am also still using the stock computer and injectors.

My suspicions were correct. When I took off the stock intercooler yesterday, it was so light. You want your intercooler to have some mass to it. I was sitting there by myself doing the install and saying, no wonder stage2 is coming w/ an intercooler water sprayer. Dynamicsrturbo(pablo) of Lujan was stunned. Willie was thinking I was going to lose power. Heck, I thought I might lose a little to. Imagine our suprise when it layed down more power. I told Willie to do another run right away and it cam back 260 as well. The third run came back at 258whp. After that, I said"ok, it's a wrap!" I want to thank everyone for their little bits of advice here and there.

Keep in mind the car is only pushing 13psi!! Imagine if I had more fuel and was able to see 17-18psi what the gains would be. Nothing outrageous but I would imagine 20-25whp gains would be easily attainable. Ok, just passing along information."
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/...6/36440154.jpg

Lame ass STD correction!

BTW, we gained 10-15whp at 17psi when Tyler upgraded to a larger FMIC core on his LS. We haven't dynoed it on race gas yet.

that is an extremely common end tank design for 1g's. Slowboy, ExtremePSI, RnR, Buschur, and Indy Race Core are ones i can name just off the top of my head real quick that use that design. I think it is probably the most commonly used endtank design on 1g intercooler kits.

The Buschur, IRC, ExtremePSI, and VPE ones are not like that. They use the perpendicular inlet/outlets, but the endtanks are not quite like those things.

I'd much rather have a big core and short piping than a tiny core and long piping. Pressure drop isn't really an issue unless you're running a stock turbo where every psi counts. Most turbos will just spin a hair faster to make the same boost with a larger volume between the turbo and TB. And I still don't get why companies make a FMIC that routes piping through the stock location. You have to take everything apart to get it on anyways, why not notch out the two holes to route short piping through? Easier to install, my ass. :liar:

I used a nice and big IC for the T25! Man that was sweet! But I think it I should have gone bigger.

With a good intercooler you should get some pressure drop no matter what. Cooler air is denser. From the Ideal gas law, in order for the same volume of air to enter an intercooler and come out the other side cooler, it has to lose some pressure.

Goat Blower: might i say u have a lovely avatar!

REALLY?

Here's buschur street kit:
http://www.turbotrix.com/images/brfmic.jpg

extreme psi's kit:
http://www.extremepsi.com/x/image.php?productid=16748

Indy Race Cores street core can be seen on www.turbotrix.com

RnR's core can be seen on www.rnrracing.com

Slowboys can be seen on page 1

Look at the placement of the inlet/outlets on the SlowBoy endtanks and the weird perfect triangle shape of the endtanks. That's what I am talking about,

The 1G core from Kinetic Motorsport looks very similar to Buschur's-
http://www.kineticmotorsport.com/pro...-gen1-core.jpg

Look at the pipes as Ecoli mentioned... if they are near the edge its much better but slow boys are like in the middle of the triangel shaped endtanks...

Did someone delete my saddam post?

the endtanks are not perfect triangle shaped. ya the inlets and outlets are a little lower, i see what ur talkin about, but they have to be lower because the core is taller than most of the other "street" cores at 12" tall vs. like 8-10" on other street cores, and the bottom already sits right at the bottom of the bumper, here's another pic of it btw...
http://www.slowboyracing.com/Interco...MIC_core_2.jpg

but anyway, who cares, im still saying that AHP's kit does not appeal to me whatsoever.

Cool, so don't buy it.

This is a pretty pointless debate as all the IC's in question are pretty much identically the same, in the long run it just comes down to the piping. IMO AHP's piping is exceptionally long and a little overdone.

Now on the other hand the comment about a 16x8 core being suitable for up to 600hp, riight. 16x8 core may be suitable for a 14b/16g other than that primary as usless as the SMIC. I'd probably rather have a supra SMIC than a 16x8 FMIC. I'd say you can never really have to big of a FMIC, the bigger the better... Now on the other hand not necessary or feasable for a 14b/16g, but who wants to run one of those pee shooters anyway.

Maybe im completly wrong on this whole concept and thats why we have such slow cars, hehe. I think for next year i got a pure genius concept of running a smaller FMIC and larger injectors, that should be the key to 10's!!!!

Nick

...and dont forget to add longer, more complicated piping because its supposidly easier to install and makes it easier to bring the car back to stock.

AHP's kit is actually about 10x easier to install...I have done both and his is deffinately easier since absolutely zero hacking is required.

The piping hacking is cake work. The only hard part is if you want to hack the stock bumper. I think it took me 6 hours to install my FMIC with short piping.

Has anyone ever done any dyno testing comparing different piping styles on the same core? I guess I don't understand what is so key about having short route piping. Sure there may be a difference rate of air temperature increase due to the pipe length increase but is the increase rate really that large?
Is there a standard composition for intercooler piping or does it vary for each manufacturer?

There will be no power difference, the only difference will be a slightly longer spool-up time. Think of it this way though, that air is moving 200-250 mph, how long does it take to move 3 feet at 250 mph (3 feet being the extra piping)? The 178 core with long(er) piping will have aproximately the same spool-up time as a 120 core with short piping. As for metals used, SS is the best since is dissapates heat better than does powdercoated mild steel. SS is of course more expensive, so its another trade-off.

To add one more thing to the piping write-up, more vendors, including Buschur, use 18-gauge piping, but AHP uses 16-guage. For comparison, most exhaust sytems are 16-gauge except for brand-names such as Apex'i and GReddy, I forget what they are.

Actually there is a HP loss to longer piping. There is a drag against the surface of the piping, the longer the piping, the more drag area. Not to mention that it has more bends in it which also cause more drag. I would want my IC piping pretty thin. Being thicker for that is just adding weight.

I am not for or against AHP. I have never dealt with them. I am just stating theory.

One more thing for piping, SS is the best choice for exhaust systems since it will hold in more heat than bare aluminized steel. Remember, you want to keep that exhaust as hot as possible without restricting the flow...thats why sometimes 3" exhaust is not the size of choice for a fairly stock car.

JET has some very valid points. One thing to remember when purchasing an IC system is the differences in end-tanks and piping probably make up a difference of 1-2 horsepower...compared to the 20-30 (don't quote me here, ask Shane for more exact numbers) it really isn't that big of a deal. One more thing to think about (yeah I know I am whoring the thread, but I feel like talking) is how unefficient the endtanks are on short-route IC sytems (thats why VPE did a redesign, too bad there welds can't handle 5 psi). I am not arguing against short-route piping since that is what I have, I am just stating many different points of view. I was originally going to get the AHP kit, but at the time I got a better deal on the Buschur kit so that is the one I went with.

I like the endtank design on the AHP cores, but the piping is just long. The endtank design on all the short route 1G kits are not optimal, but at the boost levels we run the endtank design is not all the important. At 6psi endtank design becomes more critical. SS and aluminized steel are probably the worst materials for intercooler piping, but they are the most commonly used due to cost. Mild steel is ok for heat dissipation, but it will rust instantly, so you have to either powdercoat it inside and out or use aluminized steel. Straight aluminum is probably best overall for intercooler piping due to it's fast heat dissipation and very light weight, but you don't see it used as often due to it's higher cost.