Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Well with the couple questions recently on where to get a flywheel machined and peoples experience with Kath Auto Parts on Rice in St Paul, I figured this would be pretty good info. We have had several flywheels turned by them and all were decent and at the .610 step we requested until recently. They missed considerably, by .017" to be exact. I won't go into detail the great amount of money this wasted for me but suffice it to say the overnight shipping on the clutch was a waste as well as a lot of late night labor. At any rate, what really pisses me off about the whole thing is the way they handled it after the fact. I go back up there to express my extreme dissatisfaction and maybe get an apology, possibly a credit for the work etc, what I get are a bunch of rediculous excuses. The manager wasn't around so I ended up talking to the guy who did the work, right away he sees me and says "610 step right?" because he knows how much emphasis I put on it every time I have come in there. So I tell him how far off it is and he looks at it and immediately starts denying it could be off by that much. guesses it to be 605 and takes it into a back room obviously to check it. He then comes out without saying what it was and heads for the flywheel grinder telling me that it really shouldn't matter if they are off by .010 to .015 on a step flywheel etc etc and I obviously am telling him he is wrong and why. He then starts telling me there is no way they can accurately cut the step height on their equipment because it is old etc and not very accurate. I at this point am getting really mad and he keeps making excuses. I tell him that the first three I got from him were right on and how did he manage it then etc. Also I told him if he had questions about being able to do it to the spec I asked for, he should have told me then so I could take it somewhere else. He said we should take them somewhere else because his equipment wasn't accurate. Nice of him to wait till after he screws up our stuff to tell me that. Then to really infuriate me further, he checks it with a caliper and tells me to grab the flywheel and starts heading up front. He has just been cutting on this flywheel for a few minutes and has done enough of them to obviously know they are way to hot to touch after cutting but doesn't warn me or otherwise. So in my angry haste I grab the thing and start walking up front, meanwhile I probably have no more fingerprints and my fingers are on fire. I tell him he should have warned me about the heat and he chuckles and then sais oh yea and offers me a glove. I asked the guy at the front counter if he thought he would want to touch it and of course he says no way, too hot. (I was nice enought to warn him) I have never ground a flywheel so I really didn't know to expect that much heat. At any rate it was still too hot for Kyle to touch a half hour later when I got back to the shop. On another note, I havn't talked to the manager yet, I expect something out of this, we will see how he handles it. The other fun thing is that we have a 1G here that got a flywheel cut from them recently and it is also having engagment issues. Bet I know whats wrong there now, we were thinking bent clutch fork since everyone of the first 3 or 4 flywheels they cut were perfect at 610. So if you go there, you might want to consider their equipment etc as their machine shop guy put it, they can't be sure even how much he was taking off. That ispires confidence.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Yeah, I have been back in their shop area. I was not impressed. They are great for getting some hard to find parts or race gas, but I would never let them do any machining work. They mostly work on SBC's, so they aren't used to having to be accurate.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Wait a second...WTF. I just had my flywheel resurfaced there a few days ago. I was a day away from putting everything together. Is there a way that you guys can check the step on my flywheel to see if it's correct? If so, can I take my flywheel there and have it checked? I dont feel like going all the way back there and have to deal with what you had to deal with...Why can't people just do their jobs right...argh!

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

You have access to a digital calipers? Just rest the calipers on the step and measure from the step down to the flywheel surface.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

If you're asking me. I have no idea what digital calipers are and probably wouldnt have access to it. I'll have to ask my shop teacher at school and see if he's got something like that. I saw a digital ruler looking like thing one time, but didnt know what it really was...

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Nice to know. That would really piss me off as well. Better get some money back for that type of work.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

1slowdsm, if you are near Fridley I have a depth guage. That is the best way to check the step. The caliper method will work, but isn't quite as accurate. Probably good enough for this purpose though.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Yes, JETs right the caliper will work but won't be extremely accurate because of the difficultly to make sure its square on the ledge. The depth gauge is more like an upside down T shape. You screw the dial down until it meets with the surface and take the reading then.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Oh, thats what it is. I think my teacher has one of those, but I'm sure he lost it somewhere. You know how kids are around tools that isn't their's, they never put it back where it belongs. I dont know where Fridley is, but it sounds quite a ways from Saint Paul.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Fridley is off of 694, Be almost straight North of downtown Mpls. I believe University Ave. goes straight thru it.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

I am just nw of st. paul, I am 3 miles from Roseville/35w. I may actually be heading down there soon, pm me and I might be able to stop by.

JET

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

I would say it was a much better way to check it, I would say the best possible scenario would be a granite surface plate and height gauge ;) On that note, the best place to take a flywheel is definately Red Rooster on Lyndale in Bloomington. I just went up there to have this one redone and told them what all Kath had said, they were highly amused. At any rate, they checked it with a depth mic and as expected it was off by a couple thousanths still. They told me they can hold it to .0005" so they obviously don't have the same issues. I have never had a problem with a flywheel from them, we just tried Kath since they were closer.

I talked to the machine shop manager at Kath, he seemed very reasonable to deal with, he said he would call me back with details of their efforts to make this right, I will let you know how it comes out. But definately from now on, Dave or Rick at Red Rooster do know what they are doing and still charge $35 and have it done in an hour or so usually.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Can you say "Pain & suffering"? I know a lawyer can. How are the fingers feeling, not quite right since the burn on the flywheel I'm sure. You've lost the magic touch now. I'm sure a lawyer would completely understand your new situation and how it relates to being able to do the job now. ;)

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Hey, Kath finally got back to me on what they were willng to do. Boy I am thrilled, they are offereing to do 10 flywheels for free, oh sure, thats going to help you bet. I turned them down because I don't trust them that much if that tells you anything. That and honestly it only takes one of them to be wrong and get missed and installed to burn up all their $350 worth of credit and after seeing their equipment, I won't take that risk. I would rather spend the money and know for sure. I am still double and triple checking everyone of them from now on as well as looking for a surface plate to check them as well as other things as accurately as possible.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

So what did the manager say after you turned them down?

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Mike has no case since he posted that he burnt his fingers picking up his brake pads last week. I think I see a pattern here.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

sorry you had to deal with that bs mike. Its a great thing that you are detailed orriented or you may have a lot more issues on your hands ( haha yes your hands) and not know what to do. Thanks for the info too, Ill be needing 2 flywheels done and will listen to you as usual ;)

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Well, honestly, if the other car turns out to be the same issue, a lawyer will definately be contacted. They didn't have anything other than "really?" to say after I explained that I wouldn't use the same service I was unhappy with even if they donated it. I told him his equipment was old and crappy and his measuring talents were questionable. It was a short conversation after that hahaha.

BTW, the fact that my abused fingers can even feel heat after the welded stainless etc I am always picking up (as well as that damn Mighty Max Brake incident) is pretty amazing anyway. Tells you how hot that flywheel was, and that indicates a problem with their methods as well, it should not have been that hot if done right. The other guys confirmed this.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

i hope you sue them for the damage property and yourself and for emotional distress get them on any accounts you can

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Mike, the guys over at rooster are good people. I know Dave pretty well, he always gets my flywheels. The first time I walked in there with my talon flywheel he said ".610" step, right?" Next time you stop in at rooster's shop tell Dave you built my motor.

Jim

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

I hope everything pans out alright.
I had mine resurfaced @ napa in anoka. If your just doing a general resurface there good but if you need specifics I wouldn't go there, plus they charge $40.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Well, You pay for what you get. Yes, Kath is a cheaper machineing place, I think it depends on who there does the work. I am had heads, blocks and pressure plates( V8's and 4bangers ) done there, with no probs what-so-ever. Yes the equipment is older, but if it ant broke.. don't fix it. You should call around to other machine shops, if you are unhappy with Kath, also... saying stuff to friends is 1 thing about Kath, but posting it on here is a shit storm waiting to happen. Someone said sue them.. to late they tried to resolve the issue and you turned them down. I am not sticking up for anyone here, but you guys build engines for street and race.. why didn't u guys double check the parts, how do you figure out if a machined head needs a thicker head gasket to compensate for machining difference from side to side?? I wish I could hook you up with some names of shops, but most in our area have closed :( anyways.. bring on the flames.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

He said he normally always checks the specs before hand. But in this case he didn't because he had them do em before without any issues. But now they are screwin them all up. Lesson learned. And I bet Mike will always check tolerances now after this. Still doesn't make what they did right. Yes they tried to resolve it, but with a bogus offer. They just got done telling him they can't resurface to anywhere near exact tolerances. So offering that same crap service as a resolution is retarded.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Why wouldn't Kath check their work as well? Or does Mike have to carry around something to check measurement's every time he goes there? And it's everyone else talking about going after them for money, not Mike.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

in a perfect world no.. he shouldn't.. but this world isn't perfect. I wasnot posting about this, to say its hisfault.. i was stating that he probally paid $35-40, for the work.... which is a cheaper price then Most. So, then yes I would chech it myself before installing it... but thats me. Also i stated that it depends on whos working! I had my head done for my old hondah and most recently my pressure plate for my mirage, and a 77 camro... without issue... depends on who does it. thats it.. thats all i was saying. but you have to check others work.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

I've been paying $20-$25 everytime I go to Rooster for a resurfacing. I may have been getting a discount so don't quote me on that price.

Jim

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Most other places charge around 30-40... so its any different. You pay for quality work anywhere you go. Checking their work should be the minimum they should do.

And Mike only rejected the offer of 10 resurfaces because to him that doesnt cut it. Also why take work there anymore after the way they treated him? Obviously they dont really care about the customer, or atleast the person helping him did not. The manager didnt seem to care much either.

The main thing that I see as totally lawsuit material is that the guy told him to pick up the flywheel when it was very hot. The guy new it was hot and didnt warn Mike. They are liable for that damage. Mike even said that a different guy said he wouldnt touch it.

Im sure Kath has done good work but when they slip up, like this time, they dont seem to care or even fix things. They just take it out on you and say they are right.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

No body is more anal than me on checking and rechecking anything, ask around or look at some of the stuff in my shop and you will understand that. Which is why a surface plate and height gauge are on the way, it is way overkill for what I will be checking, but that is how I am. I check every flywheel I put in, I usually check the flywheels that come back to the shop, even when I am not the one putting them in, this case was very rare, I wasn't here when the tranny was installed, I had one of my mechanics do it while I was dropping parts off an hour away. He knows all the other flywheels had been correct up to that point so he had no reason to expect otherwise, I guarantee another one won't go on a car without being double checked. But.... That isn't the reason for this thread, I stated right away that this was about the way they dealt with it and the rediculous excuses I heard for the problem. If they couldn't set it at 610, they should have said that before when I told them it had to be exactly 610, no less. I made it perfectly clear that there was no room for error for them, they could have told me then it would be a problem and I would have gone somewhere else. The hot flywheel stuff just added fuel to that fire and then them suggesting I take their self-admitted sub standard service in the future for free is just stupid. They should have handled this completely different. My point about this thread is to save other people from this experience with them now that I know what they are capable of and how they handle their business. And for turning a flywheel which is a very simple task with the right equipment, 35 is a good and fair price, Rooster does it for that as well and it comes out perfect. The difference is, they have equipment that is actually kept in good condition, and they spend the extra time to make sure it is right.

This is soo much less about price than it is about who can do it on a Saturday or in an hour when I need it etc, but they still are able to make it right. I have solved this anyway, I am going to get all the flywheels I have (a fair number) turned and check them all, coat them for protection and put them on the shelf so when they are needed they can be exchanged. I will do this for others as well as a service, if you don't want to drive to red rooster in bloomington twice and wait an hour, you will be able to bring your old flywheel to the shop and trade it for one that is checked and already turned and it will cost you $45, the markup is for the storage space, checking and coating as well as the responsibility I get by being the vendor. I will have some done and in house by the weekend if you need one. They will all be checked with a granite surface plate/height gauge so there is no question.

Dinkpit, read my posts above more clearly and you will see where I said I had the issues, everyone at one point or another makes mistakes and it is how they handle it that determines what kind of shop or business they are. If our shop makes a mistake, we go out of the way to figure out how never to do it again and always try to find the best, most accurate way to do anything. The way they handled it was really not acceptable. It is the principle of the thing and the lack of respect on their part.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

I hope everybody knows I was joking about the lawyer thang? :D

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Bummer, guess you should have showed kyle how to use your caliper...
That sucks, I hope you didn't do permanent damage to your fingers from the burns, the 10 resurfacing offer wasn't bad, maybe you could hit them up on a $350 credit in race gas :). hand out 'race gas cards' as promotion to special customers...
Its better to get something for it instead of nothing.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Wasn't Kyle and he has his own if he needs one. They didn't offer it as cash or general credit, they offered it likely because they knew I wouldn't take them up on it.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

LOL, that makes sence then!

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

But if the equipment is old then you need to make sure its still accurate. its called Preventative Maintinance.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Yea they should keep them up to spec and have them calibrated if they were looking to give a quality service...

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

AND guess what...I took my Flywheel to Napa to have the step checked and they had mine at .603.....kinda off if you ask, huh? So I took it back to them and had them check the step and the dude (younger one, different person who did my flywheel) got a .607. That kinda confused me alittle. So the guy asked if I wanted it fixed to .610 and he did it right. He even showed me the step height on his depth tool. I'm guessing the older guy with the long beard was lazy and does the crappy job. Oh well..I hope everything goes well from here on.... :)

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Did you get any money back for having to come back twice? I would have asked for a refund...

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

No...I didnt ask. They fixed it and that was good enough for me.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

How did he check it? Problem with checking it with a caliper is that it is easy to manipulate it to look correct and easier to be wrong. Dimensionally, a caliper is just the wrong tool to be using and honestly, they vary enough from caliper to caliper to not trust them. My caliper measures exact from the end if I am very careful with it, but one of my mechanics has a new one that reads about .008 different in the same situation, his is wrong and won't be used here, but it is a good example of how far they can be off even if you are holding them correctly. Never trust a caliper for any depth test that you want to be precision. My surface plate and height gauge should be here today, if you need one double checked ever, bring it by.

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

Mike what brand/model of caliper do you use?

Re: Extremely bad experience with Kath...
 

For a dial caliper Brown & Sharpe is one of the best, digital I would go with Mitutoyo. There are others that are decent, but those are the best in their category.