Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Hey dude, are you still running the dual walbro setup? Do you have an aftermarket FPR? What is your fuel pressure at? You might be overrunning the mother loving crap out of your stock regulator, washing your cylinders and diluting your oil. I didn't see an FPR on your mod list.

Bearings don't really like a broken-down oil/gas slurry...

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

It's kinda hard to figure out what happened without actually seeing it.

From the pictures, it looks like a rod nut wasn't properly tightened. Which caused the nut to loosen then shear off the bolt and as the piston was pushed down, bent the rod and turned the piston. If the piston was suspended for 14 or so degrees at TDC just after the bolt sheared because of the play from having only one rod bolt, that would explain the bent valves.

singletracker, maybe you know something I don't. But wouldn't an overrun FPR just not be able to control FP and dump too little pressure and raise the fuel pressure at idle / low boost. How would it get into the oil?

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Interesting you mention the dual fuel pumps. . .i was wondering wether i thined the oil out with the car running WAY rich. . .I bought 110 race fuel for a couple reason's A to kind of clean my valves cylinders ect, B to help prevent detonation since ignition timing needed to be taken care of and i knew i might have to drive it a distance to get tuned primarily to prevent any kind of knock. Now i had 15w 40 rottela instead of 5w 40 which dosnt make all the difference in hot wether . . .temperatures were at 70 plus degress at all times.

I must make a correction only 1 of the valves are bend. Once i removed the cam shafts all the valves sealed against the valve seats. Granted i wouldnt know for sure unless i leak down tested which at this point is futile. Judging from the damage on cylinder number 1 the other valves didnt touch the pistons.

I kind of am leaning towards blackawdtsi scenerio because the darn rod stud that pulls the nut on to the cap completly seperated. . .how that even works im clueless. We have MAJOR DESTRUCTION. . .over all i think my first guess of a loose rod must have been correct. . .:(

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Singletrack, Yeah i still have dual fuel pumps in tank. . . i will definetly add a fpr to my modlist or before the next engine is assembled and goes back in car.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

That motor was beat before you got on it. iam not suprised it blew up. Its a bummer but just keep at it. and tgis is what happens when you buy used parts shit can go break pretty fast sometimes.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

It sucks you had to learn the hard way. But unless you trust who it came from and they said it was without a doubt spectacular, clearance and torque everything important. I had to recently relearn that lesson also.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Thank you guys, especially for the words of encouragment :) regarding the trust part yeah it was from a very trusted source. They actually were there with me when it happen'd I hope to recieve some pointers, guidance ect during the next engine build from him. Heck with a little bit more posting and asking you guys, if i dont understand something the next season should be fun. Just gotta come up with a game plan now. I have my old engine sitting on the bench. Stripped down . . .the crank, water pump, oil pump, timing components and main bearings are the only thing left attached.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Yeah, i didn't actually look that closely at his failed motor pictures - it does look like a stud failure or some such thing. I was reading earlier in the thread and was like WHOA! twin pumps... dont' see anything about upgraded fuel regulation.

So when you run too rich, you can actually run so rich that you have just a ton of unburned fuel that slips past your rings and drains down into your oil pan. I've unfortunately experienced such a thing, my oil level rose and it smelled like gas. Needless to say I did like 3 oil changes in quick succession to get that crap outta there.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Perfect advice for the next rodeo get a FPR!... I wondered wether i would over run my stock fpr as well, once i started driving the car ect, but figured the pump probably wont crank that much pressure out . . .(Now that i think about it though with two pumps....didnt i technically dumple the pressure?) I Didnt give it to much thought as far as idle goes. I guess that stud might of been on its way out and something pushed it off the edge. Sad well never know what excactly did it. . .

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Whoa you were running dual pumps on the stock FPR? A single 255 is borderline over running the stock FPR at idle. I can't imagine how much you were over running it with a dual pump setup.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

It smelled quite rich, no clouds of unburned fuel or anything crazy like that though. Im not sure and wonder if maybe my small 560 cc injectors braced the volume slightly. Since i wanted to keep those in untill everything had been buttoned up then switch over to e85 with link installed Can we honestly say that the fuel could of caused this. . .because just before the last start up i put fresh oil in it again. . .

Another question: I have or had ...a key diver chip that was programmed for 1G piston refering to the stock 1g compression ration, my 560cc injectors ect. . . the engine however has/had 2G pistons. . .could the 7:1 or 7.8:1 1G compression ratio? Compared to the 8.something 2G piston compression ratio been a cause for such destruction? Doing some resarch tonight i came across that the timing maps for the 1G pistons are way more aggressive then the 2G pistons making tuning ect harder with a 2G piston set up and less room for error while tuning? This is a WHOLE NEW BALL GAME TO ME NOW. . .

Seems like all these small things could of added to the results i came up with. . .

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

1g pistons = 7.8:1
2g pistons = 8.5:1

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

precisely. My single 255 overran my stock FPR...

However, unlikely that detonation caused your problem.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

You need a good FPR to run 2 pumps all the time, even some aftermarket ones don't handle 2 pumps at low load perfectly. A lot of people with 2 pump systems have the second one come on at 15 psi or whatever instead of running them all the time.

1G ignition timing with 2G or higher compression is not good. It depends on what was actually in the chip though and what kind of boost the tune was meant for. At 20psi with 8.5:1 compression you might only be able to get away with 11-14 degrees of timing on our normal pump gas, while the stock 1G timing maps would be trying to run 22-24 degrees. It probably would have been lower in a chip that had the timing maps modified though, because the stock 1G ignition timing doesn't work very well even on a stock motor 1G unless you are running low boost or race gas.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Thank you goodhart ha i was almost close!

Now talking about the stock FPR im not sure if i excactly understand or if i have the right concept in mind. The purpose of the fpr is to keep a constant pressure of fuel. . . the less fuel you move through a specific diameter of pipe in our case fuel lines the less pressure. . .the more fuel (dual 255) the more pressure. In the case of a dual 255 set up to much fuel for the stock fpr to handle? Now where does the problem come in the excess fuel not being bled back in to the tank. . .How excactly does this result in overfueling?

I thought the injectors are only open for a certain amount of time or duration, now is the over fueling caused by the high amount of pressure squeezing more then the normal amount of fuel into the cylinders each time the inectors fire. . .or do they leak how excactly does this work? Im just curious. . .seems to be a simple concept yet i overlooked it and could, more like did contribute to the problem for all i know.

Moving on to the compression ratio @ shane the timing info would that only apply when putting the engine underload/boost not during idle? & Could one so to say pull on boost given the psi stated cause engine failure? Because if yes then perhaps that could of been the reason as well. What i would like to know is whether this dilema was caused due to a mechanical failure (loose bolt, interference ect) which im really leaning towards or Electronically (timing, fuel pump, the other not so obvious possibilitys)

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

It's really hard to say what caused the failure. I can't really even see whats going on in your pictures. Get it taken apart and take more pictures.

To answer your fueling question, yes, the increase in rail pressure is due to the orifice in the stock FPR being too small to bleed off the excess fuel flow from the dual pumps and causing pressure to build. This makes your car run too rich. What Shane was talking about regarding low load, at idle or otherwise low engine load is when the most fuel is being bled out the FPR and returned back to the tank as your engine requires little to run. The pumps are operating at full output all the time, regardless of your engine RPM or load.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

This. There's a possibility that if there was enough fuel, it would get past the rings and get into your oil. However you would've heard spinning bearings followed by a loud deep knocking.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Fuel rail pressure will go up when you overrun the stock FPR, most noticeable at idle/low load. At a higher fuel pressure, the injector will flow more fuel, hence the richer idle. I'm not saying that caused your problem, I'm just surprised you were running dual pumps on the stock FPR.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Well thank you guys for the input. Never hurts to ask for clearification :)

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

He probably heard something like that as the engine block exploded. I have to say, holy crap you were running dual pumps on 560cc injectors on E85? I thought you werent supposed to go below 720's and even thats pushing it, and no fpr? You need the AFPR because your telling dsmlink that you have a base fuel pressure of 37psi so if it's not 37 then your going to have problems. Once again, holy shit you were running a stock fuel pressure regulator.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

hahaha! Oh man talk about FAIL ...I GET IT!!!! This for sure wont ever happen again ha!but no it wasnt on e85... pump gas...still. Im sure it wasnt from fuel in the oil. . .im positive more leaning towards some kind of mechanical failure but yeah. . . LESSON LEARNED NO MORE STOCK FPR and no more ill get that part put on once i know the car runs. . . finish 100% before turning the key got it :)

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Just remember that when you are performing research on the internet you should validate your findings in a few places and from well respected and documented sources.

From a fuel flow perspective, overrunning the stock mas isn't the worst thing in the world, but it is still bad. It present a tuning issue when trying to calculate injector size and also makes it difficult for the computer to dial in fuel trims as two things are happening
1) The injector size is not the same as you've "published" in your dsmlink
2) The injector size changes inconsistently based on fuel consumption.

Generally speaking, new fuel setup + new components = difficult to manage unless you've been there and done that before.

Good luck next time.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Thank You! Ill keep that in mind. A lot more planning will go into the next steps to recovery. Sucky tthis might of been preventable had i asked more question's instead of looking up a few things and winging it. Lesson learned :) once again thanks everyone for the constructive pointers and where i went wrong ect!

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Sure has been forever since ive updated this project thread. My 1G Talon is finally running again and stronger then ever before...well actually for a few months now...ive just been working on it so much leaving, me little time to update threads or do much else for that matter.

After last years disaster i ended up picking up one Johns (Push it 2.0) Engine. Fresh rebuild new pistons rods, balanced crank, honed out just ALL OUT GOOD PLATFORM! In addition John's just one of the Coolest guys to work with BY FAR just so you know! Probably the most patient with my noob question's just awesome guy.

Here are a few pictures just because :c9598f74:

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...86455746_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...36415281_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...86813514_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...21536010_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...84902590_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...92165501_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...90432851_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...29582563_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...74894452_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...13279171_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...90258859_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...11240535_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...16238057_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...35360232_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...06311413_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...30814649_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...66250354_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...87758740_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...94845429_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...81487642_n.jpg

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...17819137_n.jpg






The current mod list pretty much stays the same. Still rocking a 50 trim sold my 1200cc for some FIC BLUE Max 1450cc added a Aeromotive FPR to my fuel set up...few more SS lines here and there. Little smaller External Oil Cooler...the other one was just over kill as far as the actual oil lines went.

Tune is scheduled at DB Performance July 12th after over a Month of waiting finally get to go on the rollers. So as far as preperation's will go for the event just a fresh oil change spare spark plugs...im thinking of installing some camms but im not sure about that since my heads not really buildt. I miss placed my 280's and thought they got tossed but ended up finding them so i figure why NOT?....Boost leak test day before and i guess just make sure i prepare as much as possible before hand ....any advice is appreciated from you guys...and yeah hope itll make a lil over 100 WHP :biggrin:

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

And............like usually the pictures are all out of order GREAT! Ill fix that once i get home. I also decided to finally install the K sport coil overs and im pretty happy with its stance...its for sure, No hella flush but i was going for functionality and more of a performance aspect instead of looks? Either way rides a lil harsh...i assume my pre-load is just a lil over kill so hope to get that adjusted soon as well, corners like a Boss though :D

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Nice. Good luck with the tune

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Yeah good luck with the tune, hope all goes well

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Has the valve springs and retainers been updated? If not I would not install the 280 cams. The db website also has some things to check on before getting tune. Good luck on the tune.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

i posted earlier, but what turbo?

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

X pride that's the thing, running these camms on a a stock head is skeetch, however person I got them from ran them quite a while on a unbuild head....I haven't done a single risky thing on this build besides contemplated running the Bc's for the tune...my goal was to rev the motor to 8k maybe 8250 but I just haven't done enough research as far as optimum rpm and or if its wise even on a build head with dual springs retainers ect....if I could get away at 7500 hundred without a build head just for the dyno I would do it....

My gut feeling tells me not to push my luck though and just wait till I get the springs before cam instal....I mean how likely or what are the odds of my valves floating at 7500 with stock springs...
pressures ect?

Turbo talon its just a tdo4b bulls eye 50 trim ball bearing turbo...I really like its spooling characteristics. Very responsive...goal is 28psi max ill need to see if it can spool and hold that psi through out the rpm range I want...24-26psi might be smarter....pretty much as much boost as I can handle without catastrophe :)

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

E85 and plennnty Boost to pass around! People seem to have good succes with 272 wish I could trade someone for my bigger camms :D

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

272 is the way to go or 264. You put a lot of time and money into your build why take the risk.

If you are running a stock tranny I would not rev past 7200. Stock tranny doesn't play well at higher rpm shifting.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

7200 hmmm I guess that would be alright with me...yeah lots of money..not as much as some but enough. Ill just run my stock camms and set the rev limiter to 7500 or 7200 ill ask Shane ...

So shall we play guess that horse power? 26-28psi 50 trim, new 1g pistons and rods, duall 255 rewired fuel pumps, base fp set at 45, 2G maf ...1450cc injectors, e85, fp manifold, PORTED O2 housing, 3inch downpipe bolted on to a straight 3 inch pipe all the way back. Stock intake manifold, ETS core fmic set up 2G Throttle body inlet...my guess is 327 whp no idea about torque 338!

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

336/308

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

My guess 265 to 280 on the heart breaker dyno.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

I think it will break 300 on there.

Depending on the condition of your transmission will determine how it likes high RPM shifting, just because it is stock doesn't mean it won't do it. I've shifted plenty of stock transmission's above 7500rpm, the clutch is the main point.

You can make a lot of power and high rpm power on a stock trans you just need a clutch.
6 puck/clutchnet disk or twin disk. If I did another manual DSM i'd do this with a stock trans. then 2.0 5858 and make 600whp.

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Heart Break for SURE! 280 would be very very very depressing but from my set up i wouldnt be to suprised either...:( ill stick with my NUMBERS though :D

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Should definitely break 300 on the dyno. Good luck, looks good!

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

Should be close to 300 on pump gas I bet. I guess 350ish if you are only wanting to run 26-28 psi and stock cams?

Re: Project XXX AWD WHP Or Bust!
 

I think I made 340 at LSE on my old 50trim setup. Forget the details but it was e85, low 20's for boost, 272's, and a horseshit street tune done on the way to the dyno day.