03-17-2010
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#1
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Coon Rapids
Drives: 07' Z06, 16' Beta 300RR
Posts: 804
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ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
OK, heres the build up, I'm running a SCM61 on a 6bolt. Since I like to push things, and don't have to rely on this car for transportation I sometimes run upwards of 35psi of boost. The engine has ARP standard head studs with a MLS head gasket installed (by someone else, unknown how tight they torqued em). Guess my question is is there any proof that these are stronger/weaker than the OEM 6 bolt head bolts? Cause the car pushes coolant under power now. 3-5 pulls and it blew out 2 quarts of water out of the cooling system, causing it to run hot (surprise surprise).
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-When in doubt, Moar RPM.
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03-17-2010
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#2
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is Nashty
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Stillwater
Drives: Cyborg from Japan
Posts: 2,080
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
OEM 6 bolt headbolts are actually stronger then standard ARP's. There is a big thread on dsmtalk about it. I'll see if I can find it..
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-1990 Mitsubishi Cyborg 4WD-
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03-17-2010
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#3
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
L19's plus FelPro Permatorque FTW!
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20g Mafia
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03-17-2010
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#4
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aka Goodbye
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4g63tcrazy
OEM 6 bolt headbolts are actually stronger then standard ARP's. There is a big thread on dsmtalk about it. I'll see if I can find it..
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No frickin' way, I call BS on this one. After the headache I got last night looking a few things up on talk, I remembered why I haven't been on that board in years.
Headgaskets can still blow with ARP's, or any other stud for that matter. Too much detonation or bad surface prep is going to cause problems. In a lot of years and different engine combos, I've only run regular old ARP's and I've blown one headgasket. I've also reused them many times and reused the same MLS gasket when chaning the head with no problems.
If it were me, I'd pull the head, see what went wrong if anything, clean up the gasket and spray liberally with copper spray, clean and re-lube the ARP's and call it a day.
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03-17-2010
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#5
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is Nashty
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Stillwater
Drives: Cyborg from Japan
Posts: 2,080
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
It was something about the yeild point of which the ARP's will stretch and the stock headbolts had a higher yeild point. I'm having trouble trying to find the thread.
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-1990 Mitsubishi Cyborg 4WD-
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03-18-2010
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#6
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Reynolds number user
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: grove/tempe
Posts: 3,553
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4g63tcrazy
It was something about the yeild point of which the ARP's will stretch and the stock headbolts had a higher yeild point. I'm having trouble trying to find the thread.
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Please find it.
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07 Ducati Monster S4R
00 honda elite 50 (64 mph braH!)
05 malaguti F15
04 E55 AMG
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03-18-2010
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#7
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is Nashty
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Stillwater
Drives: Cyborg from Japan
Posts: 2,080
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Found it! They start getting into more info on page 3, but I didnt read any farthur. Looks like more talk then actual facts. I read the thread when I was still a n00b so who knows..
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...trength&page=4
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-1990 Mitsubishi Cyborg 4WD-
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03-18-2010
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#8
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aka Goodbye
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Yeah, talk was all I saw looking for information on turbos the other night.
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03-18-2010
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#9
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formerly ecoli
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: On the dyno
Posts: 4,892
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Steve, you might want to check some posts on that other board that you are a moderator of from 5-6+ years ago about this subject. It has been know for quite a while that normal ARPs aren't all that good. The Supra guys figured out that their stockers were better than the ARPs ages ago.
Just about every DSM with normal ARPs starts pushing coolant in the 475-500awhp range on my dyno. It's like clockwork, doesn't matter how conservative the tune is. Evos heads are a bit meater than DSM heads and are less prone to flexing, so they aren't as prone to it.
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03-18-2010
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#10
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aka Goodbye
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Hmm, I'll have to go back and look, I don't remember the topic offhand. BTW, I made 520awhp on your dyno without pushing, I must just be an awesome engine builder.
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03-18-2010
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#11
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Coon Rapids
Drives: 07' Z06, 16' Beta 300RR
Posts: 804
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Heh, or your lucky, or actually installed the ARP's right, seems like alot of guys think that 115 ft lbs of torque on the bolts is gonna help them, there is a point where the bolts start getting weaker again. Well, I tryed tightening the head down to a heavy 95 ft lbs before yanking it, and while I helped the smoking, it still pushed coolant bad, so I pulled the head off... looks like the front and back sides of cyl's 1 and 4 the coating that was on the gasket is gone, probably was leaking there?
So what do you guys think about a composite gasket? I'm not really sold on the MLS ones, seems like many have coolant pushing issues, probably cause everyone else is cheap like me and doesn't want to yank the block to have it machined. I'm aiming for a max of 500hp at DB. Whats the best composite gasket? OEM mitsubishi or a fel-pro 1153?
__________________
-When in doubt, Moar RPM.
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03-18-2010
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#12
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Transmission destroyer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cambridge
Drives: G37, 91 TSi
Posts: 7,150
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarPsyco84
Heh, or your lucky, or actually installed the ARP's right, seems like alot of guys think that 115 ft lbs of torque on the bolts is gonna help them, there is a point where the bolts start getting weaker again. Well, I tryed tightening the head down to a heavy 95 ft lbs before yanking it, and while I helped the smoking, it still pushed coolant bad, so I pulled the head off... looks like the front and back sides of cyl's 1 and 4 the coating that was on the gasket is gone, probably was leaking there?
So what do you guys think about a composite gasket? I'm not really sold on the MLS ones, seems like many have coolant pushing issues, probably cause everyone else is cheap like me and doesn't want to yank the block to have it machined. I'm aiming for a max of 500hp at DB. Whats the best composite gasket? OEM mitsubishi or a fel-pro 1153?
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If you are stuck on getting a composite, I would vote Mitsu. If you want to do it once and never fuck with it again, A1/L19 and FelPro Permatorque is the only way to go.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheides
I swing from the nuts of cold hard data. Anything less is a guess.
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03-18-2010
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#13
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Coon Rapids
Drives: 07' Z06, 16' Beta 300RR
Posts: 804
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodhart
If you are stuck on getting a composite, I would vote Mitsu. If you want to do it once and never fuck with it again, A1/L19 and FelPro Permatorque is the only way to go.
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Yeah, but you need to have a flat block and head with a MLS head gasket... which a Permatorque is.... like machined and lapped flat... or I will be back where I am now...
__________________
-When in doubt, Moar RPM.
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03-18-2010
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#14
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N17r0U$ br4D
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
I started pushing coolant when I was making 490ish at DB. Went to L19's with the perma torque and haven't pushed a single drop of coolant. I didn't do anything to the head or block dthat was any different when I was pushing coolant with ARP's and a cometic. Layed a flat edge against the head and said fuck it and put it back together.
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My rice rocket best times
Pump Gas: 8.85 @ 152.3 in 2016
Race Gas: 8.982 @ 152.16 in 2014
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03-18-2010
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#15
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Finally Tuned...
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zimmerman
Drives: Spyder GSX
Posts: 2,484
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
This just shows how cheap some people are. If you cant afford to build a motor the right way then dont build it at all because in the end you will just complain about the HG blowing coolant or the head studs stretching again. Why go so far and then stop at the point of surfacing a head and block to use a HG that is known to work? A1's and permatorque FTW! Plus like C3L1CA said, you dont need to resurface the head and block for sure. Just check it with a strait edge like he did and it obviously worked for him. BTW nice car and awesome power C3L1CA!
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94 Supra TT Auto, Project 9.xx in the works
97 Spyder AWD 6 bolt 2.3, 579hp 496tq **FOR SALE**
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Last edited by 95talonracer; 03-18-2010 at 09:01 PM..
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03-18-2010
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#16
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aka Goodbye
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
That's pretty much all I ever did as well, sometimes the straightedge was a 2x4.
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03-18-2010
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#17
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Crash Course Racing
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Skid Row
Drives: in circles
Posts: 2,623
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by C3L1CA
I started pushing coolant when I was making 490ish at DB. Went to L19's with the perma torque and haven't pushed a single drop of coolant. I didn't do anything to the head or block dthat was any different when I was pushing coolant with ARP's and a cometic. Layed a flat edge against the head and said fuck it and put it back together.
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That was a fun night!
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What the fuck should I 4G6x swap?
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03-18-2010
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#18
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Lol I hope your kidding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Blower
That's pretty much all I ever did as well, sometimes the straightedge was a 2x4.
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20g Mafia
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03-18-2010
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#19
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cottage Grove
Drives: Silver '02 IS300, Blue '06 Suzuki SV1000
Posts: 5,293
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
It's Old Man Hill. He doesn't kid around. haha
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'02 Lexus IS300
'06 Suzuki SV1000: Back on the road and ripping hard as ever!
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03-18-2010
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#20
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N17r0U$ br4D
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Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QUICK4
That was a fun night!
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That reminds me, if you get L19's put two of them in upside down! It's good luck
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My rice rocket best times
Pump Gas: 8.85 @ 152.3 in 2016
Race Gas: 8.982 @ 152.16 in 2014
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