Oil in Intake how much is normal?

[perryg114]

I have a 91 GS turbo that I am in the process of fixing up. One of the things I am doing is rebuilding the turbo. It has for most of its life leaked a lot of oil into the intake. There is always a good bit in the intake and it also seeps through the rubber hose joints and runs out. How much of this oil leakage is normal. The seals are just a piston ring around the shaft so I can't imagine that being an oil tight seal. I bought the car new and it has 120,000 miles on it. Nothing, engine wise, has been replaced accept the belts and the water pump since it was new. Oh yeah, I did crack a manifold and replaced that. The turbo has no end play but there is some side to side play.

Perry

[Pushit2.0]

I would look at your crank case breather line(from valve cover to intake pipe) and PCV valve. Normaly that is where oil comes from.

~John

[perryg114]

Thanks I will look at that. So do I need to be messing with the turbo bearings? Is noticeable side to side play in the turbo a bad sign?

[Pushit2.0]

Some side to side is ok, in/out is what is realy bad. A new turbo or a good used turbo might be in order.

~John

[perryg114]

Why would I need a new turbo unless you are trying to sell me one? A used turbo would most likely be in worse shape than the one I have that has been taken care of. Anything can be fixed it is just a matter of how much stuff that will have to be replaced. I already have the bearing kit. Worst case would be a new turbine and shaft.

Perry

[dragonforce]

When you rebuild the turbo, everything has to be balanced inside. It is more complicated than you think.

[perryg114]

Well I am planning to mark everything so I can put it back the way it was. Like I said, other than the oil in the intake the turbo and car runs fine. If it was seized up I would definately have it rebalanced. If there is any contact with the scrolls or missing blade parts or lot of erosion I will definately have it rebalanced and parts replaced as necessary. Its got 120,000 miles on it. Its all stock and I run synthetic oil in it so I hope it is not coked real bad.

Perry

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Well I am planning to mark everything so I can put it back the way it was. Like I said, other than the oil in the intake the turbo and car runs fine. If it was seized up I would definately have it rebalanced. If there is any contact with the scrolls or missing blade parts or lot of erosion I will definately have it rebalanced and parts replaced as necessary. Its got 120,000 miles on it. Its all stock and I run synthetic oil in it so I hope it is not coked real bad.

Perry

What do you plan on "marking it" with?

You do realize that turbochargers spin at 100K+rpm and any slight imbalance/imperfection/mis-adjustment will send it apart quickly.
The average shelf life on an OEM turbocharger is 100-150k miles. After that bearings and seals usually need replacement. I would suggest to find a low mileage 14b, a new turbo, or send it to someone that does quality, reputable rebuilds.

On a side note, John was not trying to sell you a turbocharger. If he would have posted "Buy an Evo 16g from us for $569.00 plus tax", THAT would have been trying to sell you a turbo. He was mearly providing information and an answer to your question.

In and out movement (on a journal bearing turbo) indicates thrust bearing wear. Slight side to side wear is normal. The amount of oil inside the center section can really effect how much "load" is felt.
If your crank case system is in check, you might have to look at the turbo for possible signs of seal failure. Are you still running the valve cover breather into the intake?

[slowbubblecar]

Diesel Components in Burnsville could rebuild and balance it for you if you are set on keeping your old turbo and rebuilding

[perryg114]

Originally Posted by niterydr

What do you plan on "marking it" with?

I am not sure but I know it can be done because anyone that balances these things has to take the shaft off and balance the assembly out of the center section. It them must be taken apart and put back into the center section. If you have any suggestions as to how to do this I would be grateful.

You do realize that turbochargers spin at 100K+rpm and any slight imbalance/imperfection/miss-adjustment will send it apart quickly.

Yes I am an aerospace engineer I am familiar with turbo-machinery. I am assuming that if I can keep the turbine and the compressor properly clocked that I can maintain the factory balance.


The average shelf life on an OEM turbocharger is 100-150k miles. After that bearings and seals usually need replacement. I would suggest to find a low mileage 14b, a new turbo, or send it to someone that does quality, reputable rebuilds.

Finding the latter is hard to do.

On a side note, John was not trying to sell you a turbocharger. If he would have posted "Buy an Evo 16g from us for $569.00 plus tax", THAT would have been trying to sell you a turbo. He was mearly providing information and an answer to your question.

Sorry, I am pretty good with mechanical things I earn a living at it. I am not a turbo-charger expert but I am pretty competent with most things.

In and out movement (on a journal bearing turbo) indicates thrust bearing wear. Slight side to side wear is normal. The amount of oil inside the center section can really effect how much "load" is felt.
If your crank case system is in check, you might have to look at the turbo for possible signs of seal failure. Are you still running the valve cover breather into the intake?

Yes everything is stock should I change something to reduce oil consumption?

The turbo has a good bit of side to side play on the compressor side but very little axial play (in and out) and very little play on the turbine side. The turbine and compressor are in good shape and nothing was hitting the scrolls. The turbine does not look eroded at all. I am a little concerned about there being more play on the compressor side than the turbine side that has a much harder life.

Perry

[tpunx99GSX]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Why would I need a new turbo unless you are trying to sell me one? A used turbo would most likely be in worse shape than the one I have that has been taken care of. Anything can be fixed it is just a matter of how much stuff that will have to be replaced. I already have the bearing kit. Worst case would be a new turbine and shaft.

Perry

Woah perry, this isnt tuners, dont come on here and think that everyone is trying to scam or sell you everything under the sun. We are stating the obvious, if there is in and out shaft play, replace the turbo, its usually cheaper then having it completly rebuilt, especially if the center section needs to be replaced.
Just because you work as an Aerospace engineer, does not mean you know everything about everything. Plus your from Alabama... nuff said.
Not trying to flame but when talking to a senior member and someone that knows what they are talking about when it comes to Turbos and DSMs i suggest you pay attention.

Is noticeable side to side play in the turbo a bad sign?

Sure proved your knowledge there.

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by perryg114

I am not sure but I know it can be done because anyone that balances these things has to take the shaft off and balance the assembly out of the center section. It them must be taken apart and put back into the center section. If you have any suggestions as to how to do this I would be grateful.

I don't balance turbochargers. I leave that to the places that have the proper equipment to do it.

Originally Posted by perryg114

Yes I am an aerospace engineer I am familiar with turbo-machinery. I am assuming that if I can keep the turbine and the compressor properly clocked that I can maintain the factory balance.

People have clocked (well put back to where they were before hand) turbo's in the past and it works for them. In theory it should work, but it is not something I will attempt or offer customers as a service.

Originally Posted by perryg114

Finding the latter is hard to do.

Forced Performance or Majestic Turbo for rebuilds.

Originally Posted by perryg114

Sorry, I am pretty good with mechanical things I earn a living at it. I am not a turbo-charger expert but I am pretty competent with most things.

Congrats on earning a living with your hands. So do I and most people on this forum.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turborebuild.html
Okay article on rebuilding turbo's at home.
http://www.engine-builder.com/ar/eb20726.htm
2nd article down is a good read on blow-by.

Google.com works wonders when researching subjects .

Originally Posted by perryg114

Yes everything is stock should I change something to reduce oil consumption?

The turbo has a good bit of side to side play on the compressor side but very little axial play (in and out) and very little play on the turbine side. The turbine and compressor are in good shape and nothing was hitting the scrolls. The turbine does not look eroded at all. I am a little concerned about there being more play on the compressor side than the turbine side that has a much harder life.

The turbo sounds in decent condition, I would look at the rest of the vehicle.
Have you checked for crankcase pressure?
Done a cylinder leakdown test?
How much oil is burning?
Blow-by test?
The systems can fill up with oil mist quickly if you have a cylinder that is starting to get a substancial amount of blow-by.
Most OEM turbo's show more "wiggle" on the compressor side compared to the turbine side.

[perryg114]

I have not done a leak down test although I need to get a gage for doing this. I can measure the compression but I have not done that lately either. The car probably burns about quart every 1000 miles on a long trip but it seems to burn alot less with city driving. My theory, however flawed it may be, that on a long trip I would be pulling a vacuum more often and sucking oil past a bad compressor seal where in city driving where I am under boost alot I got less oil consumption. It has been using oil like this for a long time on long trips maybe since it was new. The turbo is about due for some work anyway so regardless I don’t think putting in new bearings is a bad thing.

The engine has 120,000 miles on it and I run Mobil 1 15w-50 in it. I also run a good air cleaner that does not allow grit to get into the engine. This car has been sitting waiting on a new clutch for a while now and I am trying to freshen things up without spending a ton of money on it. I am trying to gradually upgrade stuff as it goes bad. I am not looking for big HP at this point although I may try to gain a little as I make improvements. I suppose I could have some blowby problems but I figure at this point I have nothing to loose. When I get the car running I will do the compression and leak down tests but I don’t plan on taking the engine out of the car anytime soon.

Perry

[bluntedelvis]

Kind've sounds like alot of work do a rebuild on a turbo "a 14b none the less", how much for this do it yourself kit, sounds like when your said and done with all the Balancing and direct placement of parts you would've spent more money than just finding a good "NEW or USED" t-25, 14b, or even a Evo3 without breaking the bank and doing the install yourself.

[perryg114]

Originally Posted by bluntedelvis

Kind've sounds like alot of work do a rebuild on a turbo "a 14b none the less", how much for this do it yourself kit, sounds like when your said and done with all the Balancing and direct placement of parts you would've spent more money than just finding a good "NEW or USED" t-25, 14b, or even a Evo3 without breaking the bank and doing the install yourself.

The bearing kit is $70 and I don't plan on rebalancing. A balance job is around $60 if you do all the work. If send them the center section the rebuild is $250. Here is a good article on rebuilding a turbo. I think getting the thing out of the car is worse than the rebuilding process.

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/rebuild16g.html

Perry

[bluntedelvis]

So breaking it down $380.00 for the works, and you might as well balance it, hate to see you do all the work and it wont build boost worth a damn cause of balance issues thus making the turbo really next too useless. Just keep in mind $380.00 for the kit or $100.00 to $200.00 for a used 14b or t-25, and getting the turbo out isnt all that hard just make sure you dont bend the oil line, well hope this helps and good luck.

[perryg114]

No a rebuild by itself is $250. The bearing kit is only $70. So hopefully I will spend $70 on it.

Perry

[Kracka]

Rebuilding a turbo without balancing it? You're dumb. They spin at over 100k RPM's...think about it. Don't be cheap; do it once, do it right. Good used 14b's can be had for under $100 and if nothing else, used 16G's go for $2-300.

[Jakey]

Originally Posted by perryg114

Yes I am an aerospace engineer I am familiar with turbo-machinery.

Let me guess, you're a Six Sigma Black Belt as well.

[GUY]

hey not to change the subject to much but i had something very similar but different effects, so im putting in a new act 2100 this week and i have a breather(very small air filter)on my valve cover, and it has oil dripping out and when i droppped the tranny out the clutch was glazed and worn because of the 114k on it but do you just use a hose going to the intake then? or plug it or put a pvc valve in it before the intake or something because i dont want it to glaze the new clutch(also why i replaced the o-ring and made gaskets around the thermostat so that didnt leak at all) hit mu up on here or with a pm if tou can help thanks!