2.3L vs 2.4L - Page 2

niterydr · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnormal

there is a kid down here with a built 2.4L in a fwd 2g with the friggin t25 on it, haha. BOOST AT IDLE FTW!!

Are you serious?

WTF....

Super Bleeder!! · 03-16-2006

i am, sadly. the kid is a genius.

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

I have heard of a few people doing that for breaking a motor in before but not for normal operation.

sleepydsm · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr

No. The larger motor will consume more fuel. Your turbocharger will also hate life.

Well let's add: 550s. Why would the turbo hate life? Just because there is more exhaust (volume and energy) that it might, in a sense, overwhelm the turbo?

Shotgun! · 03-16-2006

Think of putting a T18 on a 4G63. It will hate life. Just trust us, hate life. I have always wondered about the "bigger block" folks that have the stock turbo or turbos. I had a domestic guy asking about how far you can take a DSM, so 2.3s and 2.4 came up. He got super excited about the easiness of it all. He then starts talking about how much power a 2.4 should make with a stock turbo. I explained that the engine is an accessory of the power source, which is the turbo. He turned red. There is a 3.5L 9b Stealth too.

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 03-16-2006

There is some wrong info in this thread.

The 4G63 bore is 85mm, while the 4G64 bore is 86.5mm, not 87mm.

The rod ratio of the 2.3l is not better than the 2.4l, it is the same. They use the same rod length and same stroke. The 2.3l just uses a condensed piston.

You should actually be able to run a 2.4l block on a stock car. The stock DSM air metering system is not based on volumetric efficiency, like a Honda or speed density car. It uses a MAS, which measures actual airflow into the motor. The MAS would read more airflow for the bigger displacement and the ECU would add more fuel on it's own.

niterydr · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecoli

There is some wrong info in this thread.

The 4G63 bore is 85mm, while the 4G64 bore is 86.5mm, not 87mm.

The rod ratio of the 2.3l is not better than the 2.4l, it is the same. They use the same rod length and same stroke. The 2.3l just uses a condensed piston.

You should actually be able to run a 2.4l block on a stock car. The stock DSM air metering system is not based on volumetric efficiency, like a Honda or speed density car. It uses a MAS, which measures actual airflow into the motor. The MAS would read more airflow for the bigger displacement and the ECU would add more fuel on it's own.

Whoops, 86.5mm that's right. I'll go fix that

. I just always order atleast 87mm pistons, thats what I get for not looking it up and "remembering it".
You COULD run a 2.4L block in a stock car, and your right it would work just fine. That is the beauty of a MAS sensor.
But with the average dsmer, odds are they'll be doing "cheap/free mods" at the same time. The exhaust would probably be opened up, the intake would be opened up, and the boost would be bumped. Since all these "mods" tax the fuel system on a 2.0 car, it would be highly recommended to upgrade something in the system to handle the extra demand that the 2.4 requires.
Lets not get into how much that 14b will like life with the extra exhaust volume from the larger motor....

**Goat Blower** · 03-16-2006

And besides that, a stock turbo will make 11, 15, 18 or whatever psi with either engine, it's only the wastegate that bleeds off more air with a bigger engine. As long as that's not restricted or over-run, the turbo could care less what engine is pushing it.

A few years back, a friend of mine made the infamous 2.7L DSM engine and ran it around with a 14b. He said it had no issues and went like a bat out of hell. I didn't see it personally, so it might or might have not been true.

niterydr · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goat Blower

And besides that, a stock turbo will make 11, 15, 18 or whatever psi with either engine, it's only the wastegate that bleeds off more air with a bigger engine. As long as that's not restricted or over-run, the turbo could care less what engine is pushing it.

A few years back, a friend of mine made the infamous 2.7L DSM engine and ran it around with a 14b. He said it had no issues and went like a bat out of hell. I didn't see it personally, so it might or might have not been true.

Yeah it will just bleed off the extra boost, but remember this is a stock car. Honestly, I've never tested a oem car with a 4g64 shortblock on it. I would imagine the factory system might not keep up with the boost control.
I know alot of the smaller MHI turbo's seem to spin apart when you start upgrading flow. A few members on here have lost a variety of turbo's after switching motors, heads, cams, etc.

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

I also can't see how the engine size is going to affect the turbos life. 11psi is 11psi no matter what engine its bolting to. The only way I could see it faily is from a lubrication standpoint. If it had way to much oil pressure or something else. I guess it could spool so fast it could surge and eventually fuck shit up as well.

**Goat Blower** · 03-16-2006

I can't think of anything that would keep you from dropping a 2.4 into a bone stock car. It's a 20% increase in displacement, but like Shane mentioned, the MAS easily can compensate for that much extra air flow. You'd just need bigger injectors if you wanted to run any boost.

**Shane@DBPerformance** · 03-16-2006

If the 2.4l made more exhaust, then it would make more boost. If the wastegate could regulate it at 11psi on both motors, then it should be fine on both motors. The wastegate on the 2.4l motor would just need to bypass more exhaust. Hell going from a 14B on a 2.0l to a 14B on a 2.4l is probably a smaller jump than when Mitsu went from the 14B on the 2.0l to the T25 on the 2.0l.

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

The only thing that would effect the turbos well being is having a way to bleed of the exhaust gases. Yeah I suppose if the wastegate was too small it would creep like hell and run a shit ton of boost and then run lean ect. But if you had the proper boost control ie/wastegate/boost controller you should be just fine.

niterydr · 03-16-2006

11psi is not 11psi.
Ever heard of Shaft speed? Its been proven time and time again, you put to much air behind a tiny turbo, it will spin apart. But I guess, since I"ve only seen this first hand, in person, my experiences aren't valid. The point is the factory flapper (remember this is an oem car) can't handle the boost at higher load. Maybe it could handle it at factory boost, I've never tested it.
Why doesn't someone just swap one in and see how it does?

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

Fuck Shane we posted the same info at the same time. Weird.

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr

11psi is not 11psi.
Ever heard of Shaft speed? Its been proven time and time again, you put to much air behind a tiny turbo, it will spin apart. But I guess, since I"ve only seen this first hand, in person, my experiences aren't valid.

Your right to an extent, shaft speed could come into play. But we aren't talking about running max amount of boost the turbo will run all the time. We are talking about a low steady regulated amount of boost close to stock levels. People that blow small turbos like you are suggesting are usually maxing them out all the time and then yes they are going to go boom boom after awhile.

niterydr · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlizzard

Your right to an extent, shaft speed could come into play. But we aren't talking about running max amount of boost the turbo will run all the time. We are talking about a low steady regulated amount of boost close to stock levels. People that blow small turbos like you are suggesting are usually maxing them out all the time and then yes they are going to go boom boom after awhile.

Yes, those people are on dsmstyle

.
Like I have been saying, if the ECU/factory wastegate could control it, yes it could work. I am unsure if the factory could regulate it. It is a very interesting question, and if I had the time or the money to test it, I would. Because, I would like to know. However, I've never done it, and I've never given the okay to one of my customers to try it.
I consider a 46g4 a motor swap that needs "supporting mods", like a mod to begin with.

TheBlizzard · 03-16-2006

Pretty much the reason you never see it is because who the fuck wants to build a race motor that can handle lots of boost and HP and then run a little turbo at stock boost. But we just love arguing about things that "could" happen. So just deal with it.

niterydr · 03-16-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlizzard

Pretty much the reason you never see it is because who the fuck wants to build a race motor that can handle lots of boost and HP and then run a little turbo at stock boost. But we just love arguing about things that "could" happen. So just deal with it.

Yeah I know, probably the thing I love the most on dsmstyle.
Its the only "dsm" board that is all about theory. The other board like this where the "professors" come out of the woodwork is 3si.org.....and that board is way to damm big to get in on alot of the stuff.

CDeutsch · 03-16-2006

I broke in my 2.4 with cams on the stock T25 and stock injectors. I had DSMLink too but it worked fine without adjusting anything.

It ran normal, but it felt like it wasn't making the power it could which was probably due to the huge restriction in the exhaust (aka the T25).

I switched to a PTE 50 trim as soon as the motor proved it would hold together.