Starting problem
 

As of like 3 days ago, my car all a sudden started having a starting problem. When I go to start it, it'll start but not fully. It'll just kinda start for about a 1/2 second, never go above 500rpm, and die. Kinda sounds like it fires barely and just kills. So far I have checked compression which is 150-150-145-150. There is a spark present on all 4 plugs. I took off the return line from the FPR and turned it over to make sure there is gas pumping through, and there is fuel. Base timing is set at 8BTDC when the plug is grounded.

This is a 91 talon awd. Mods are 50-trim, exhaust, intake, 2g MAS, EPROM ECU with keydiver chip. 650's, 255hp... The only thing I can think of is maybe it has something to do with the fact that I'm running the 255hp on a stock FPR. But then if that's the case, why was it starting for the past week and a half just fine?

Anyone have any insight?

Re: Starting problem
 

leaking injector flooding out the car when its not running? Vaccum leak?

Re: Starting problem
 

what's a good way to check the injectors for this? They are brand new, only been used for 1 1/2 weeks. I'm pretty sure I don't have any vacuum leaks as I have minimal vacuum lines and I did a quick look over and didn't see anything. But I will test that also. Not to second guess you, but how would a vacuum leak cause it to not start sometimes, and then start other times? And wouldn't it cause other issues while the car is running like idling rough?

I guess I did forget to mention a few other things. The car does start sometimes. Like 1 out of 20 attempts and it might start. And when it does start, it runs just fine, idles just fine. Also I have looked for leaking gas, and nothing is wet anywhere near any fuel lines/injectors/fuel rail. After I attempt to start it a few times and it won't start, you can smell gas.

Re: Starting problem
 

maybe check your tps too, i know my datalogger will check injectors, i doubt if they are brand new that they are bad. If you were getting unmetered air in the maf would be wong, i had a problem withthis once from my BOV but then again i am not recirculating Does there seem to be any specific time that it does it worse or more predictably or just al the time do you now what your fuel pressure is?

Re: Starting problem
 

I'm not sure what my fuel pressure is. I don't have a guage for that so I'm sort of unsure how to check that. There is no specific time it does this. It just started doing it a few days ago, and it's just gotten worse every time i drive it. What seems to have been working is I pull the MPI fuse, and crank the engine over for like 5 seconds trying to get everything out of there that I can. Then put the fuse back in. This works sometimes after just 1 try, or after 10 tries other times. So I'm not sure if it's actually helping, or if it's just coincidence. If I can get the car to start, I too have the ability to shut off the injectors 1 by 1 with my logger. Maybe that'd be a nice quick way to see if they shut off. Also how can I check my TPS? On the logger it would show the throttle at around lik e8% at idle, and 100% at WOT. That seems about right to me, so can I assume it's working fine?

One last thing I noticed a little bit ago. The little solonoid that the FPR vauum lines connect to, it was ticking real fast, kinda sounded like a little relay was just going apeshit in there. We unplugged it and plugged it in again. It started, but then I shut it off and tried again and it wouldn't start again. So there I'm also not sure if that actually did something, or was just a coincidence. What I did after that was take one of those other solonoids right next to them that I'm not using anymore (emissions are removed), and hooked up the vacuum lines and connector to it, and it didn't fix a thing. So I'm thinking that is probably good as well.

Re: Starting problem
 

Its an idea but it might not be fuel related mine is more stock an was doing th same thing but it was a rotted wire at the alternator which was giving a bad connection to the battery so you might wana check you charging system out just to be sure

Re: Starting problem
 

How would charging have to do with this? The battery is working fine, the car is turning over fine. The problem is that it turns over, over and over and over, and nothing happens except for it hicups for a second like it wants to start but just dies.

Re: Starting problem
 

I was thinking the same thing, it's a pretty common problem.

Get it up to operating temp then shut it off & let it sit for awhile.
After it sits for about 10 minutes pull your sparkplugs and see if there is more of a heavy gas smell from one of the cylinders. You could also pull your fuel rail out (with the injectors still attached) and see if one injector (or more) are leaking.

Re: Starting problem
 

Thanks. I will look at that here when I have some spare time! I bought these injectors while I was in Japan probably like 8 months ago from SLS. But I just got the car working 2 weeks ago so they have like 200 miles on them only. So I'm thinknig I'd probably be screwed if they are bad because I ordered them so long ago eh?

Re: Starting problem
 

Are you sure the MAS is good and/or plugged in? Are the spark plugs fuel fouled?

Re: Starting problem
 

The spark plugs have a ver slight whitish look to them. They aren't wet or anything. They have about 3k miles on them. The MAS is plugged in. How can I tell if it's good or not? When the car starts, it reads Hz just fine, and it runs just fine. Is there a way I can tell if it is good or bad?

Re: Starting problem
 

Well I finally just got this thing started after trying over and over. Here's a few extra things I wanted to bring up.

I wanted to bring up an idea someone else told me. Possibly the coolant temp sensor. Now again if this was the probelm, how can I check this? With my logger somehow? It didn't have some crazy negative numbers for AIRT or COOL (which I'm assuming mean airtemp and coolant temp). Airtemp was like 71*f, while COOL was at 180*F after it ideled for awhile. Is that about right? Is the airtemp a little high since it's actually like 30* out? Also there was an EGRT (which I assume means EGR TEMP. It was at like -17*. Could this mean anything?

I also just checked the injectors. When I turn each one off on the logger, they shut off. So that would mean they are working I'd think. The other day, the little solonoid for the FPR was clicking all fast and crazy like, could it all be from a bad ECU possibly?

Re: Starting problem
 

If your coolant temp sensor went out, it usually reads something stupid. I think mine read -178 degrees or something like that. That solonoid increases fuel pressure during cold startup. If you want, I can give you mine off the auto to swap out for a test. Let me know.

Re: Starting problem
 

Swanny. I have the emissions removed, so I tried swapping the lines and the plug over to my unused EGR solonoid since they seem like they are both pretty deng similar. That still did not fix the problem. Was I wrong in thinking that they both should work the same? If they operate totally different, then yes I'd love to borrow yours. But if my idea was actually a right, then I have already ruled out the solonoid as the problem.

Re: Starting problem
 

yea i have that little solenoid eliminated, i think its pointless, maybe will only add fuel like a choke

Re: Starting problem
 

I had that same problem when my caps on the ECU were leaking, but you have a new ECU it seems... also behind the radio it was clicking also.

You can get rid of all emmisions and that clicking FPR solenoid under the hood. You might want to look at your FPR itself, maybe its draining all the gas back to your tank and there isnt enough pressure to get the car going again?

Try running just the fuel pump for a few second with the logger, then fire it up and see if it takes? Could be a bad FPR?

Re: Starting problem
 

Thanks Peter, I'll try that after work! Yes the ECU is new, well new to me. I bought it, and I guess it's a possibility that it could have went bad in the couple weeks I used it. It's always a possibility.

Re: Starting problem
 

I dunno how I forgot about this, but I have an ECU sitting on the shelf that does the same thing. One day after work I tried to start my car, and the engine just spun and spun and spun. I tried it about twenty times and it wouldn't start up. I had just called my g-friend to bring my spare ECU when I decided to try it one more time. It fired up and ran fine all the way home. Sorry, I had forgotten all about that bad ECU. I even had the same fast clicking fuel pressure solenoid symptom that you have.

Re: Starting problem
 

Any chance the cas could be causing something like this? I don't know how it would just stop working one day.

Re: Starting problem
 

OK Well I'm reviving this thread. I just replaced my FPR with an Aeromotive unit. I had thought that possibly my stock one was stuck open or something, and sending too much fuel back to my gas tank. And maybe that also was why I am getting crazy knock readings most the time. Well, this changed nothing. Hell I can't even get it started now. I am thinking about getting my ECU checked out. Is there anyone, or any shop on here that has a way to check an ECU, to see if it's working right?

Also I eliminated that FPR solonoid when I installed the new FPR, so I suppose that is out of the picture as the problem as well now!

CAS, I was also wondering about this, and also that TPS. Is there a way I can see if those both work? I have an SAFC, and when I go to the "sensor Check" menu, and I hit the gas, there's a number on there that goes from like 0 - like 5 or something around that. I'd guess that is the TPS doing it's job? So would that mean it's working right? This problem is driving me nuts!

Re: Starting problem
 

Is your car throwing any CEL?

Re: Starting problem
 

Nope. But Im sure it will here shortly due to the emissins being removed. The battery was dead, so it reset the CEL, but it will be back!

Re: Starting problem
 

Here's a snapshot of the new FPR! I just need to get a gauge for it now!

Re: Starting problem
 

OK well after doing more reading, I am thinking I need to make sure I have the correct fuel pressure, and to do this I need a FP guage on that FPR. So that is going to be my next step!

Re: Starting problem
 

OK now I'm reading the vfaq on how to pressurize the fuel system. It says to put 12V to the terminal on the Fuel Pump Check terminal. Here is the picture they show.
http://www.vfaq.com/proj-pics/FPR/FPR-20.jpg
Is this the same terminal you ground out to set the idle? I can't really tell from the pic, but the only plug down there that I know of is that one for setting idle/base timing.

Re: Starting problem
 

If you have the Pocketlogger software you can do it right from there.

Re: Starting problem
 

^^ Yea that is the easiest as you can hear the pump running. Otherwise just turn the key the On poition and then off, repeat that a few times until pressure is built up and it should start right up.

Re: Starting problem
 

I didn't even think of that, thanx!

Re: Starting problem
 

OK well I went to TNT today right here by my house and picked up a FP Gauge. I set the base pressure to about 37 with the vacuum hose unhooked. Here is what I've noticed so far, and also a few questions.

First, is the pump supposed to kick on and build up pressure when you just turn the key to the ON possition? Mine doesn't. But once I start cranking it over, the pressure seems to be up there by 30. I can't tell perfectly because I am in my car and the guage is under the hood. The car still struggles doesn't want to start, but sometimes it eventually does after trying for a few minutes.

Now when I shut it off after it's running, the fuel pressure immediately drops down to maybe like 25, and then slowly bleeds off to 0 after about 1-2 minutes. Is this normal?

Also, I did like what Hughes said, and used my logger to turn on the fuel pump. When I turn it on, the pressure jumps right up to 37 and stays there until the logger stops the test and the pump shuts off. As soon as the pump shuts off, the pressure starts to bleed off, and is at 0 in about 1-2 minutes. Again, is this normal? Am I loosing pressure somewhere or is this normal?

I went back by the fuel pump, and removed that trunk cover plate. I noticed some fuel around the fitting where the fuel pump/tank cover hard line connects to the rubber fuel line. I then loosened that connection, put some teflon tape on the thread, and tightened it nice and tight. I turned the pump on some more, and didn't notice any more leaks. I thought maybe this was where the pressure was leaking, but the car is still doing the same thing when I try to start it.

Over the last week I've been doing a lot of researching trying to figure out my starting problem, and as you can probably tell, I am thinking it has something to do with my fuel pressure being low. So to kinda of test this theory a little, what I did was grab my logger, turn the fuel pump on so that it built the 37psi, and then once the test was over, I immediately attempted to start the car. It started up right away like a champ! Hasn't started that nice in a long time.

I am thinking that right there is telling me that it is in fact a fuel pressure problem. Am I right thinking this? I have heard that the Walbro O-Rings tend to tear. I removed the fuel pump, and the O-ring was real nice and snug in there, in face it stayed in there when I removed the pump. I then got the O-Ring out and it looks like it is in great shape. I don't think any pressure was leaking past that thing, but tomorrow I am going to go pick up a new one because it's so cheap anyways.

Does anyone have any insight into this? Any idea why my pressure is dropping off like that? I'm thinking it probably did this with my stock FPR as well considering I had this same problem with my stock one. So I wouldn't think it's the FPR. Anyhow, any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Starting problem
 

Yes the remaining pressure that is in the system when you turn the car off drains back to the tank. Unless the stock FPR only releases fuel back to the tank if its at X amount. Im not sure how your aftermarket unit works. I wouldnt think the pressure would drop totally to 0 but it might not be strong enough to move the guage?

Re: Starting problem
 

Have you checked all the injector seals and the O-ring going into the fuel rail?

Re: Starting problem
 

No, but I will! Now when I'm checking them, am I just looking for an obvious rip, or whatelse should I be looking at exactly? That TNT place has all sorts of O-Rings, so I suppose I will just replace the O-Ring going into the fuel rail, as well as the one at the pump since he should have them, and they probably cost next to nothing.

But Peter, you're saying it is normal for my pressure to be dropping like that? So if that's the case, then apparently that pressure drop off is normal?

Again, is my fuel pump supposed to turn on and build pressure when I turn the key just to the ON possition? should it be building up the pressure right then and there before I begin cranking it over?

Re: Starting problem
 

Yes, when you turn your key to the "ON" position, it charges your fuel system and get it up to preasure (the pump only runs for a split second). When you begin cranking the engine the pump will of course be on too. Once the car is running, does it stay running? If I were you I'd replace the O-ring going into the fuel rail and the O-ring on each injector top (might as well do the donuts going into the head too). If that TNT place of yours doesn't have any, the Mitsu dealership will.

Re: Starting problem
 

Yes it stays on. Once it starts, it idles just fine, and I can go drive it around too. Sometimes when I am attempting to start it, it will barely start, be all lumpidy and die within a couple seconds. But when I turned on the pump with the logger, and then turned the key when it was pressurized, it started just beautifully.

And when I turn my key, the system does not pressurize. The guage does not move at all.

So if this is the case, what would be stopping this from taking place. The ECU? The FP Relay?

And I will replace those rings as well. Thanks playa!

Re: Starting problem
 

I had a similar issue with my old car and it was the ECU, the car would start up great sometime sn and then die others, I thought you replaced your caps though.

I would think most of the pressure is supposed to go down and release the gas back to the tank, but I didnt think it would depressurize down to 0. Although when Ive worked on fuel systems and taken the injector out of the rail it doesnt spray fuel everywhere, so there must be 0 pressure or close to it, otherwise when you take the rail off or pull an injector out it would spray everywhere.

Re: Starting problem
 

The ECU I got off Jet in the summer. They said it was rebuilt by LightningGSX. I'm not sure how long ago though. I am still going to replace those O-Rings tonight, but then if that doesn't do a thing, I will remove the ECU and see if I can get it checked out by someone.

Re: Starting problem
 

OK well I posted up this question on tuners last night too, in hopes that some of the more intelligent ones there could give me any useful info.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213288
Steve on there said that 1g's do NOT pressurize the system when you turn to the ON position, only when you turn it to the STARTposition. So it sounds like that is exactly how my car is working. I am still going to replace those rings though, and I think my next step will be the ECU.

Re: Starting problem
 

OK well i changed out the fuel pump and fuel rail feed O Rings. They changed nothing.

BUT...

Something did change. Before I even tried to start the car, I turned on the logger, and I couldn't get a read on anything. I also could not test anything, like when I'd try and turn on the fuel pump to build up pressure, nothing would happen. It's like the logger would not communicate with the ECU. Hmmm.... Then a little later after I cranked it over a few times and nothing happened, the solonoids on the firewall (FP, EGR...) started clicking like crazy.

I'm back to thinking I have an issue with my ECU. I am boxing it up and shipping it to STEVE off DSMTuners. I PMed LighteningGSX, but heard nothing back. So I will end up shipping it to Steve.

Re: Starting problem
 

Well just thought I'd update this. I received an email back from Steve today. Apparently the ECU had a list of problems, and he will be repairing them and send the ECU out on Monday. That's kind of a relief I suppose, because hopefully those are what was causing my problems. I'll post up once I get it back. Hopefully she'll start right up!!

Re: Starting problem
 

Nice, I had a feeling that sounded exactly like my old symptoms.