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Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Well I picked up a 7 bolt motor from a buddy, Eagle rods and Ross pistons. Just going to build it for fun and see what can happen before the end of the year. So I been told by a member here that I need a Twin disk no matter what. Personally I think the DXD clutch I have now will be just fine, maybe get the 6 puck clutch from Southbend to hold more power, but running a twin disk is going overboard in my opinion.
Also this person thinks that all and every 7 bolt that makes power will crank walk no matter what. So if its going to get CW no matter what then why should I get a twin disk to slow the process down? I think thats a broad statement for the people that have made a lot of power on 7 bolts and yet they havent crank walked. Any opinions? Personally if every 7 bolt walked then there would be recalls and no one would have one in their car yet start adding mods so they make power. There are a few people that have stuck a lot of money into their car and run 7 bolts. Look at Shane, he's making great power on his 7 bolt and he has little to nothing in it for machining. Brian made good power on his stock 7 bolt before it crank walked but it was stock so I can see why it happened. So I dont understand how that statement can be correct. I want to hear some opinions first before I start this project. Am I wasting my time? Discuss... |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Alright, so not EVERY 7 bolt making power has walked. But it seems pretty unavoidable. JOSH WAS EXAGERATING, aka wrong.
You dont NEED a twin disk, sure a regular clutch will work.. till it walks For the cost of what you are paying, it is worth trying. However, IMO ( no engine builder here, just read alot) if you dont make sure that girdly is PERFECT, if you use a heavy clutch, and you dont torque plate with machine work, I THINK it will walk in just a matter of time. Personally I think it will walk either way with you building it in your garage / shop thing. You picked and chose my words and neglected to say I didnt know this wasnt actually being built for a race car. You mentioned it was for fun, that is great. It will be fun. Then it might walk and leave you stranded at the track yet again. This point IS NOT PROVABLE. Many have tried, no one has succeeded. There is no real fix for it, and no one can stop it from happening. You used shane as an example? That motor has relatively low miles as far as I know. Bartons motor walked possibly because of the power he made. What about Chris? That motor didnt last long and every precaution ( besides the clutch ) was taken. ( the old one, the new one seems to be working out) - Once again, I am no engine builder, and I have not seen this first hand. I have read alot and heard alot. I just dont see the point in throwing money into a 7 bolt when you dont have to. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
You said it will walk after the first day...
The reason I am doing this is cause I picked up the block, crank, rods and pistons for $50 and a valve cover. I could really pass it up for a good time. Its been balanced and blue printed and is all ready to go, I just need to pick up bearings. It also has ARP rod and main bolts. I'll spend another $100 on it in bearings and be done. $150 + some time for a built 7 bolt is worth it I think. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
How about the crank that is probably scoared? I can't remember, but I've seen it and I think it needed to be fixed or replaced.
I dont have the conversation anymore, but again I'm sure you were taking that out of context. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I will agree that the actual CAUSE of crankwalk is not known. Yes, Chris Carreys motor did walk but he was also running a ACT 2900 so once again, that could have been a cause.
What people DO know, is that a lighter pressure plate will prolong the life of the thrust surface, which is why a Twin Disk is such a good idea on a built 7 bolt. I am not saying it is needed, because some people do fine on built 7 bolts for a long time. But the fact is, once again that NO one really truely knows what is causing walk on the 7 bolts. Many theorys are out there, but there is no definite answer. Who knows, for a good price its probably worht it to try.......BUT I still would never build a 7 bolt or even put one in my car! When there is a better option out there (6bolt) for minimal amounts more work then why go with something that has proven to be unreliable. And as far as Shanes, It seems like he has never gotten much over 200 miles on his built motors before something breaks or he decides to revamp his set up. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
How much power are you planning on putting down? Just go with something with as little pedal pressure as possible. I have a DXD as well, and I used to have an ACT 2100. The DXD pedal pressure is *much* less than the 2100 was, and it is supposed to hold as much or more power as a 2600. I'd stick with the DXD if you're not going *too* big.
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Crank is perfect... One of the rods was scored but I have a different one already. I have the conversation if you want it Josh~ |
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What clutch was Barton running with his 7 bolt? I can't remember, did his motor actually crankwalk or spin a bearing? |
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I like the idea, and would like to try the same route. Granted it isn't that much more difficult to throw in a 6 bolt but it would be easier to use the engine it came with. My 7bolt has 108,000 miles and it and hasn't skiped a beat I'm also not making gobs of power with my 16g set up either. For that price why wouldn't you. If you decide not to let me know and I'll buy the parts off of you.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Just build the 7 bolt, remove a bolt and call it a 6 bolt. ;) That's how Shane keeps his going. lol
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
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C.H. 1.375 Ring Grooves 1.5mm 1.5mm - 3mm Ring Lands .350 .185 .085 PIN .866 2.500 DBL Net dome cc's: -12.10 Dome height 0.000 Dish Depth: 0.123 Int V.P. Dia. 1.400 Depth: 0.120 Exh V.P. Dia. 1.300 Depth: 0.080 These are the #'s from blue print. Ross Racing Pistons spec sheet. |
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I would stick with the DXD and see if it will hold the power. Also install a clutch bypass switch so you don't have to have the clutch in on startup. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Im pretty sure post #12 and #13 werent me (josh). I dont know exactly what that shit is about?
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
The crank is not perfect? The rod bearing spun and was thin as hell along with a burnt eagle rod after the accident, but did not melt to the crank. I should know because it was my engine and I did this. I basically just went 100% wot when oil was not normal temp and this is what caused the failure. Stupidity. The crank was polished and re-done, but when he builds it he still needs to install rod bearings and check clearances to see if in spec. Needs to be balanced as well. Then what the heck, give it a try!
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Dude Jason! Post Under Your Name! I Dont Know How You Have My Pass But Holy Shit This Is Confusing.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
What the hell is going on here!!
Since we're on the subject of CW, i wanted to clear something up, 1G 7 bolts dont walk, right? SO whats wrong with them other than the smaller rods? If you built a 1g 7 bolt, it would be just as strong as a 6 bolt right? or am i completley wrong |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
My friends 93 TSi AWD crankwalked, but that is a rare occurance.
I could have sworn I read something that there is a lack of tranny mounts supporting the 2g transmission in the right places, or not supported at all. I havent worked on many 2g's before, but I do remember reading something about that. No one knows why 2g 7bolts walk so often, and no one probably ever will......... |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Thanks Jason... I gave my you my parents fax number which also happens to be the home phone number, they werent expecting a fax at 10:30pm so thats why they were answering it. I'll give you a call tonight and let you know when to send it.
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I "think" barton had a 2600 but I know it was defenitly crankwalked. I thought I heard it was at like .030 whick is huge.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I have stuck with the 7-bolt because I know I won't be putting many miles on the motor. Even a shitty 7-bolt can handle a few thousand miles without crankwalking enough to cause too many problems, and I am cheap.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
It's not just from a heavy clutch, 1/3 of the CW cases have been automatics. And the engine mount theory, no dice. I came up with that 4-5 years ago, no response from anyone in the know.
Just make sure you have someone build the engine that knows what they're doing, use the correct size main bearings(there are three different sizes if I remember right) and if you are using ARP's on the mains, make damn sure you had the mains line bored and are using the dowel pins. Any engine can walk, the 7-bolts just seem to have the problem more often than most motors. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Mike sure as hell knows how to build a motor, but Careys walked last year?
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Shindley has probably built the most 7 bolts around here.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I have a built 2.4 seven bolt with Eagle rods and Ross pistons and I still wish I just would have gone with the 6. The damn thing makes me nervous everytime I hear any odd noise. It's just not worth the risk. Mine is still running but so far it's only seen a stock clutch (12.5 quater mile with it) and an HKS twin disk. My HKS gave me problems. Besides being a bitch to install, I was never able to get it adjusted between not disengaging enough and having pedal pump up. Eventually some how I managed to snap 3 of the 6 flywheel studs. :confused: I'm now in the process of intalling a Horse Power freaks feramic disk with an ACT 2100.
My HKS clutch may still be usable if you buy some replacement studs and/or a rebuild kit. The disks didn't seem to have any problems before the studs broke but I'm no expert just looking at it. If you want to take a risk I'll sell what I have for $100. I'm to fed up with it to give it another try. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Oh and I still remember the advise someone gave me before I started my build. "When you're adding up all the money you're saving don't forget to add in the price of a new moter after yours walks." ;)
When it comes down to it, it's a gamble. And currently the odds are much better if you just do a 6 bolt. |
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Point is even if you only spend 400 dollars to build this, that is 400 dollars you could have put into a good engine. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Mike didn't mention anything about a soft crank to me either. He showed me a 7 bolt block and told me to look at the webbing in it. It is much thinner than a 6 bolt. The thinks it is allowing the crank to move around some. It seemed pretty viable to me. It definately is thinner than a 6 bolt.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I say go for it jake! its cheap to do it and you got the parts at a killer price. If it walks...oh well. If it doesnt you will have a faster car for cheap. Plus how many motors actually walk anyway? not more than 50% do, and I hear if its less than a 50% chance, go for it. DO IT JAKE, YOU KNOW YOU WANNA!
PS if you need any help in your decision, give me a call! -Colin |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
*shrug*
I know when I saw the crank and the thrust bearing side by side Mike pointed out that the crank's thrust surface was severly worn, but aside from the metal deposits from the crank on the bearing, the bearing itself was fine. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
I too specifically remember Mike talking about the softer crank issue on the 2G 7 bolt. He had said that he was going to get it nitrided in an effort to prevent that damage again.
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Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Yeah, but the crank isn't even supposed to touch the bearing! As far as the bearings are concerned, the crank could be aluminum and be fine.
So how is the crank touching the bearing? There could be a lack of oil (or too much pressure breaking through the oil layer) or either the crank or bearing are getting out of position. |
Re: Building a 7 bolt... What clutch?
Cudvig, since when does a built motor mean a faster car?
You still dont want to tune much different and the compression ratio is the same, so the only thing you are changing is the ring's, so a little bit better compression numbers, but not neccesarily any more power for the price. |
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I say nerts to 7 bolts entirely, its like trying to make a ford fiesta fast, sure it can be done, sure it can be done for cheap, but why bother when there are better options? Chris C's motor had alot $$ into the machine work (I won't disclose the amount, thats his decision). Everything was done to the block except maybe machine the block to retrofit thrust washers like the 6g72 and most honda motors... There was nothing conceiveable left to try to make it 'crankwalk proof' except switch the clutch out and give the crank a fighting chance. I am sure it will still walk, its a 7 bolt, just hopefully at a slower pace. But thats just my $.02. |
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