High Knock in my Talon
 

Well I finally hooked a logger up to my car because it felt rather weak. I find out that as soon as I punch the gas to the floor, my knock count shoots up to 42 and stays there until I let go of the gas, and my timing gets pulled to like 9 or so. First I tried resetting my ignition timing. That didn't fix it. Next I went to Mitsu and purchased a new knock sensor. That didn't fix it. That is where I stand right now. I have my psi set to 10 so I'm not shoving a ton of air in there, and I've tried richening it up by adding fuel with the SAFC and nothing changes. What else should I be trying? I heard to try and convert to newer lifters or something like that. So as of now, that will probably be my next approach. Or even go and buy some extremely high octane gas. Not sure where to get that neither. But any other insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

How did you torque down the knock sensor? They are pretty picky.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

My first question as well.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Bad injector/fuel supply.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

How old is the gas in your car? Seeing that youve been gone for a while overseas. If thats not it, yea check the knock sensor torque and maybe make sure your timing is all correct.

I know that when my car skipped a couple of teeth on the timing belt it would knock anytime you hit 0 or higher on the boost gauge. And then after a little driving you could hear the valve pistons toughing a little...

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

The knock sensor was not torqued down in any sort of special manner. I just wrenched it on there tight. What torque should it be on there at? Should I have used Locktite or anything? Also this has been a problem since before I left. It's always felt a little weak, so I don't think it's the gas. Plus the gas in my car is new. I've been home maybe a week and have filled it 3 times already. I do have new 650 injectors I could install, but just didn't want to go installing anything until I got this figured out. Should I throw them in and just see what happens? Also one other little symptom I'll add with this. Only if I floor it at like under 4k does this happen. If I slowly get the RPM's up past like 4-4.5k, and then punch it, I usually get no knock, or the occasional 4 or whatever. But when the RPM's are low, like trying to accelerate in 3rd gear with RPM's at like 3k, she is pretty deng slugish all the way through the whole RPM band and I get the crazy knock readings. I also get these reading just in neutral sitting in the garage and reving it up. Thanks for the help so far though!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

I would really double check your timing to be safe first, then check over everything else. Just make sure the camshafts are lined up and that should be good.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Check your fuel controller settings for the midrange, it sounds like you're getting too much fuel. You could also pull the plugs immediately after a pull and see if you have a rich cylinder or something.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Sorry I have not had internet access at my house since I got home until about an hour ago. OK I double checked the timing. All marks lined up, and timing is set right around 8-9 BTDC. As far as the SAFC, everything is set to 0 right now because I haven't put in any of the new parts yet. Steve maybe when you get my car, I'll drive the Talon there to pick it up and see if you see anything that I don't if you don't mind taking a peek at it. This is real annoying because I lose a ton of power when this happens. It seems like it's a problem right around the 3-4k range. Even if I am accellerating at a nice normal moderate rate, right when I hit around 3k rpms, it kinda bogs off and on until I'm over 4k and then I'll get most the power back. Thanks again for everyones help.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

OK well 650's are in. I was hoping maybe I had bad injectors or something, but my problem remains. I listened really close after taking it for a spin around the block. When I hit it in the lower RPM range, I do hear a ticking sound. Kinda sounds like when you snap your fingers. Not a loud knocking tick sound, more of a tingy bubbly tap that goes faster and slower with the RPMs. What usually makes that kinda sound? I'm guessing it has something to do with what's going on but i'm not 100% for sure.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Your base timing is set to 8-9 Deg's?

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

It is right around that when I have the timing plug grounded under the hood. Is this not right? What should it be at?

Also I'm looking for some of the revised lifters. Anyone know off the top of their head who has them for a good price?

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

What kind of oil are you running? If you have stock HLAs and your running mobil 1 they will tick and you might get knock. I run Castrol syntec and its the best oil Ive used against lifter tick. I get no knock and my hlas have 199k on them.

I believe that your timing should be around 7 when the plug isnt grounded. It should be at about 5 when your plug is grounded.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

[QUOTE=me612]The knock sensor was not torqued down in any sort of special manner. I just wrenched it on there tight.QUOTE]

You just answered your own question. Knock sensors are very sensitive, follow the procedures and torque specs exactly as stated in a service manual (Helms, Chilton, etc.)

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

i got my chilton at a checkers. You could also probably find information like this online somewhere. Maybe www.vfaq.com ? OTherwise I'm sure Mike knows. Austen should know as well. I believe mine is right about 7.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

My Chiltons and Haynes are in boxes, somewhere, being shipped here from this tiny island in the ocean far far away. No clue when they will be here, and so I have no clue about the torque specs. Anybody know by chance? I just know I wrenched it on real tight. Also to torque it, do you just use one of those O2 sockets with a slot in the side cut out for the wire? Today the car is running much better though. I'm guessing the fuel injectors did something. My knock stays pretty low now but does get up near 20 on occasions, but atleast no more 40 counts.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Alright, you have several problems. Set your timing to 5 BTDC (like the stick under the hood says). The tapping sound could very well be plug wires. Third, set your knock sensor correctly. I believe it is 10 ft-lbs that it is supposed to be set at, that is not very tight at all. If you get it too tight it will be overly sensitive and read too much knock.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Alrighty. I had always thought it was supposed to be 8 BTDC with the plug grounded. But you're saying 5 with the plug grounded, so I will try that. And then once it's ungrounded, it should go to around 7 or so? Anywho, I will do that. Also I will torque the knock sensor less like you said. Again though, what do you guys use to torque it? Just a little O2 type socket? I don't have a way really to use a torque wrench with the sensor because I don't have a socket that will go around it, yet have a gap so that wire has somewhere to hang out, kinda like an O2 socket. And the plug wires have maybe 3k miles on them, but if the first two things you mentioned don't work, then I'll try new wires since they really aren't that much money, and also throw in new plugs. Thanks again for the help.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

OK well I readjusted the timing to 5, and I still don't have a way to torque the Sensor in, so I just loosened it and then tightened it snug, not really tight like I had it. The car seemed to perform better the way I had it. I'm getting some 43 counts again now. So annoying. I need to get a way to torque that sensor down, just so I can rule that out.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

10 ft/lbs is barely past finger tight. For starters, I'd go finger tight then a tiny turn with the wrench.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

I am pretty sure it is 6ft/lbs. If your car has been sitting for a while, you may want to try some MCCC. I had the same problem. I cleaned the cylinders and it went away. When driving the car, hammer the gas until it knocks, get off and hammer it again and see if the knock is gone. Mine would dissapear after letting off the throttle for a second. If yours does the same, clean the cylinders.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Yes I think I am going to try that also. I also did do the finger tight and then just a little more with a wrench. MCCC is something I'll try as soon as I get my second car. Thanks

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Well now that my car starts, I'm back to troubleshooting this. I am heading to the dodge dealership right now to get some MCCC. I was out there today playing with the knock sensor. I still don't have any means to torque it to a specific number. So I tried just finger tightening it, then finger tight with a little itty bitty turn of a wrench, then a little more, then barely finger tight. Nothing seems to be changing at all. This is a new knock sensor, new gas, my car doesn't have any lifter tick that I can hear.

This knock is getting ridiculous. I don't even have to by moving. I can just have it sittin in the garage, in neutral, and rev it up, and the knock is through the roof about a half second after the pedal hits the floor. We'll see if this MCCC changes anything. I also am going to double check the ignition timing. I'll write back with my findings. If this doesn't fix it, I will probably see if I can stop by LSE and have them quick torque the sensor for me since I know they have a socket for it.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

If you have access to high octane gas it wouldn't hurt to try that. If it knocks on 100+ octane you can be pretty sure it's not real knock.

The weather and oil may be making your valve lash adjusters tick. They may do it even with different oil and warmer weather. If you end up needing to replace the VLA's I would search ebay for 3G lifters. Last I saw full sets were going for $100 which is the best price I've seen.

Have you done a boost leak test recently? Not sure about knock, but that can cause timing issues and I had similar problems when I was leaking boost.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

This problem is VERY OLD. If you look at my first post, this car did this even in warm weather. Heck it did this in Arizona, so it's not the cold weather. I just didn't want to start a new thread, so I'm continuing this one.

Earlier I reset my base timing to +5 BTDC. Then I bought 2 cans of MCCC. I sprayed one completely through the PCV valve. I could only do it in 1 minute spurts though, because after about 1 minute, I couldn't hardly breath due to a beautiful exhaust leak right at my O2/DP flange. But anyway, I did that, let it idle for like 10 minutes, then took it for a ride around the block. I did see a slight improvement. I came home, parked it, pulled the plugs, and sprayed the 2nd bottle evenly into all 4 cylinders. I will let it sit overnight and clean it out tomorrow. If it's still there, then I will make sure I get that knock sensor tighted to EXACTLY what it should be.

Then if it's still there, then I will go ahead and throw some high octane gas in there and see what happens. I still don't think I have that loud of lifters, but if it's still there, I will get the new lifters. I am running plain jane Valvoline 10W30. I know Hughes is a fan of using thicker Rotella, does anyone else reccommend switching to a thicker oil? I did use Rotella once, but seemed to notice higher oil pressure with it and was a little worried about it. But maybe I was just being a chicken.

Anywho, I will write back once I see what happens tomorrow!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Do you plan on driving this in the winter? If so I would probably stay away from the thicker oil.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Nope. I have another car that is my daily driver. This is my summer toy. The only winter it's seen is this year, it's been driven 3 times, but only when the roads were completely free of snow. I enjoy having a 91 with zero rust on it!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Torqueing the knock sensor isn't that important, and won't cause the problems you're describing. It sounds like you've already got it in there just fine.

If it's carbon build-up on the pistons, letting the MCCC soak should take care of it. Make sure to change your oil immediately afterwards since you've just washed your cylinder walls down.

When I had "phantom knock", it was from dirty lifters. It wasn't audible like you'd normally hear, but it happened to be in the frequency pocket that the knock sensor picks up. No need to buy new ones, just pull yours out, let them soak in a bucket of kerosene overnight, then take each one, spin the top til the two holes line up, and blow it out with some compressed air. Compress them and put them back in, they should fill with oil in 30 seconds or so once you start the engine.

A faulty knock sensor could also be causing this, but I'm guessing that's the first thing you looked at.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

This is a new knock sensor with probably less then a thousand miles on it.

As for cleaning them, I will try that if the rest of this doesn't work. The only thing I didn't understand is when you said 'compress them and put them back in'. What do you mean by compress them? Thanks again!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

I am pretty sure he means to compress them so all of the kerosene it out of them. You dont want to put them in filled with fluid. Correct me if I am wrong though.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

How do I do that? I have never compressed a lifter.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

No, the kerosene or other cleaner comes out when you use the air pressure. Compressing the lifters allows them to fill with oil right away when the engine is started, plus there's a possibility of bending a valve or two if it's not done since the valve could be open slightly when the piston comes up to TDC. You can compress them by sticking a very thin piece of metal like a pin in the top hole of the lifter and squeeze it with your fingers. Or the down and dirty way Marco showed me at the shootout, use a bottle jack and slowly compress them against something that doesn't move, like the rail on a car trailer.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

I had this same problem, changed the oil to synthetic and it went right away. I'm willing to bet that its dirty lifters.


-Colin

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Cool, I will do that later on. I just got my air compressor home just now, and also the garage heater! It's been rough going out there working in the freezin arse garage, but now she'll be nice and warm!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

YOu could try going to a synthetic to lube those lifters a little better. I tried mobil 1 and htat was the worst for lifter tick, but I never had phatom knock on my car even with 200k on the lifters. I loved castrol syntec because it made the lifter noise go away about 10 seconds after you started the car. Thats just my experiences with oil... but if you havent been using synthetic ever, then your engine seals might start leaking becuase of the penetration factor of synthetic oils.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Yes I'm not really wanting to go Synthetic as the car has never seen it that I know of, and I don't think switching to Synthetic at 109k miles is a good idea. But I did do that MCCC cleaning, and it made a difference, but the problem is still present. Also I put in Rotella oil again since it's a bit thicker, in hopes that maybe it'd quiet stuff down a little bit. The problem now is ,only when I hit it from below 3500 is it really a problem. If I rev it over that slowly, and then punch it, i don't get any knock for the most part.

I have now removed the lifters, and have them soaking in some gas to hopefully get them clean. I have my aircompressor here now, so in the morning I will line up these holes and blow out whatever's in there, and attempt to compress these things! I'm still trying to figure that out, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. Then we'll see what happens!

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Now that's hardcore, working on the DSM on a Saturday night when it's fucking freezing outside. You go girl! I'll just go make myself another Captain Coke. Mmmmmm, sailing with the Captain. Arghhhhhhh..

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Ya thank god I got that garage heater. I need to get a new one though. 35k BTU in a 2 car garage is pretty wimpy. It worked great in my old 1 car, but this 2 car I have to have the thing on non-stop to keep it at a comfortable level.

I thought you said you're party was going to be boring Steve, sounds like you're doin just fine!

Oh and I did figure out how to compress those things. I got my special tool that is doing the trick just fine (paper clip and needlenose pliers)!!

BTW, does anyone have one of those timing belt special tools? The real long bolt looking one? If anyone does, I would really like to borrow it tomorrow!! My battery bolt temp one is pretty much shot now and I don't think it'll work anymore.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Well they are all cleaned, and I soaked em in oil for a little bit, and then compressed the oil out of them so all there is is a thin coating inside them for now.

All I need to finish the job is the timing belt bolt tool. I took the cams out to do this, I probably could have just left them in, but well I didn't. So if anyone has that tool they'd be willing to lend out for a few hours, then let me know! Otherwise I will just get one during the week sometime.

Re: High Knock in my Talon
 

Brandon do you have the timing belt totally off right now?