Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Just because you can read a little and have the basic idea of where things go in an engine, does not mean you should attempt building one. I am in the middle of double checking the assembly work of some fellow DSMer who lucky for them I don't know the identity of. ARP Moly does not go on the bearings! Niether does the vaseline or whatever the hell that is on the rods. It isn't assembly lube or lubriplate. ARP mains don't go in a stock motor and also there is a reason there are two different torque specs for oil and ARP lube on the studs, notice however there isn't one spec for using both so don't. I swear this person added the two specs together and went to town. Way too tight. And when you do figure out what to use for assembly lube, put some on the thrust surfaces as well, never know, it might be a good idea.

If you can identify with any of these things, drop the wrench until you can at least watch someone or get a helping hand from someone who has done it a time or two. It will save you a bit of money.

Okay, I feel better now.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

LOL, it was me! What are you doing checking that 1.8 motor I was secretly building! That's my skill set ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

That's great! I can atleast follow directions. This sounds like the hot street setup for sure, costum no doubt.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

lol, well I'm glad you're on the case

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

wait, was this built by a local guy?

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

mike accidently left a toenail clipper in his diaper last night so hes in a bad mood. LOL JK.
How do you not know whos engine you are building? did they leave it on your doorstep with a note saying "Fix me"

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

I know who did the machining, I don't know who assembled it. I just know it was a somewhat local kid.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Funny bitch.

The engine was sold twice without being finished. The build sheet was passed along, but the question of who assembled it was never answered. It wasn't a shop, that much I know for sure. The machine work all looks fine, I will know more when I check the clearances, but the assembly was done by someone that obviously shouldn't have.

Silly truth is, I do occasionally get parts dropped at my door with notes right along those lines ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Wow, sounds like a rock solid bottom end to me. I dunno what you are bitching about. Everyone knows old tranny oil is the best assembly lube. ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Thats probly what would happen if I tried to put a complete engine together...cept that I wouldn't try to do it myself cuz I know that it would just be plain stupid to do!

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

LMAO! ARP moly as lube. What could be better?!? Gotta love the newbies. I have done some pretty stupid things before but damn, how can you be that stupid? This isnt small engines class in highschool anymore where your messing with $50 motors. Some people need to get a clue!

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

LMAO, wasn't me dude!

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

The person who assembled the engine, also has his positve AMP wire running out the hood and thru the door jam with no fuse. The same person is also driving around with a Vise-Grip on the brake line because it was leaking. The same person has to twist wires together to make things work in the car.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

..and drives with a BIG wing on the rear, even though the car came with a molded stock wing! Well, it's time for me to go out and beat up on some other cars..ttyl!

-A. Swift

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Stop talking about me!!! You know what, fuck you guys at least I tried.





Oh wait, nope wasn't me.....my mistake ;)

But hey, at least they didn't use peanut butter as assembly lube *cough* NASCAR *cough*.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Well I'm sure who evers engine that belongs to is going to feel a lot better knowing that you checked it over.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Yeah, that would be my engine... and no I didn't build it :)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

I'd love to hear the story of how you learned that.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Excellent, I decided I better pull the head off and check the pistons and ring gaps etc, considering the bottom end of this thing. Glad I did, First thing I notice is all the ARP's backing out, after that, pull the head off and see all the pistons sitting 180 out, in other words backwards. Some people may not think that matters a lot, but I assure you it does. The Piston pins are offset to one side, it effects quite a bit. Most obvious would be piston slap and wear. Also incorrect TDC to the valve timing events etc. Then there is a distinct lack of any lubrication on the cylinder wall, they are completely dry. The ring gaps are a little loose on the first ring, but tollerable, the second ring is exactly the same which is not tollerable. Along with a few other stupid things like the presence of an un-identified grainy substance in the cylinders (possibly from a cylinder hone) and of course the ring gaps being all lined up nicely. The importance of that has been in debated for years, some claim it doesn't matter some say it does, I can see arguments for both sides and likely it doesn't matter since the rings are completely free to rotate in whatever way they choose, I of course still take the extra time to put them in a nice staggered way. If it helps great, it can't hurt. Either way, this person should not have assembled an engine. Not a cheap one, expensive one or otherwise.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

ok, i'll admit it. it was me. i mean, when i put the g54b together, i didn't use any "lube" i just poured oil down the hatch and cranked 'er about 10 or 12 times before plugging in the coil wire. she started right up.

but i've got great compression, i think it's in the 65-70 psi range.

mike, didn't you know? if you reverse the pistons it reduces torque transfer?

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Sounds like this motor came from the same guy I got one of my cars from... Some people just shouldn't try when they clearly have no clue or concept of what to do.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Wow, seems like a real garage mechanic to me. I bet they didnt use a torque wrench at all, just "eh fuck it, snug um up reely good'n it'll be yall rite".

And Mike, about what you were saying about staggering the rings, have you noticed them being un-staggered when pulling motors apart. From what I have seen, it seems like after break in, the rings would stay pretty close to the part of the cylinder wall that they broke in on in the first place. I know that now machining tolerances are very close, but you would think that the rings would wear in to a point and kind of lock themselves where they are? I dunno, just an observation.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Nice thought, doesn't quite work that way. They don't wear enough of a groove in the cylinder wall to maintain a position relative to their install. They actually do have a tendency to line up to some degree, not always, but it is common to find them in a row on a motor that has run for a while. The main point is that they are completely free to spin in any way they choose and there is little short of pinning them that will stop it. It is good practice regardless to stagger them and for that reason it should be done. I always have and always will. If there is any chance they will maintain position, it is worth the few extra seconds ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Interesting, then I have another question!

What is a modern break in actually doing then? If the rings dont "wear into the cylinders" then what is a modern break in actually doing? Assuming all the Machine work is correct and true, then what is actually "breaking in" on the motor that manufacturers and even professional race engine builders still suggest a break in? Assuming that the rings will always turn inside (havent seen anything proving they do or don't) then all that the rings and cylinder walls are doing is smoothing themselves out. In that case, I only see a break in procedure lasting 10-15min of 2000rpm and then a few times under load and the motor should be 99percent "broken in". Hmm, time to do some more research for me.

(And yes, every motor I have/will ever build will get the rings staggered)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

The rings do seat against the cylinder walls, but it isn't anything that would wear a groove in the cylinder wall. That is the main thing that happens on break-in.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

As mentioned, the primary reason for break in is getting the rings seated in. Before modern plateau honing methods, it took considerably longer as it was the rings job to level off the peaks left by the honing process (microscopic) Of course that wears the rings considerably more as well. Now days the rough honing is followed by a much finer hone that levels the peaks off so most of that process is already finished. In cases where plateau honing is used, the break in period is very quick almost as soon as the engine is warmed up. definately after the first few pulls. The main point is that in either case, the rings do not effect the cylinder wall nearly enough to leave any "guide" or retaining type ridge for the ring gaps to maintain a stagger. Just doesn't happen. In fact like I mentioned, they have more of a tendency to line up. I pulled another stock engine apart this week that 3 of the 4 pistons came out with all the ring gaps lined up. It had over 150K on it.

BTW, it is worth checking with whoever does you machining to see if it has been plateau honed so you know what is appropriate for break in. It seems like there are still quite a few shops that don't use it. They really all should.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

you better listen to the old man, he knows it all!

afterall he is edumacated by the best!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6032

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Funny man E. That book just showed up, and like I expected, there were a few valuable bits of info in it. No one person knows everything, it should be everyones goal to be the best they can at whatever they may be trying to do which means lots of research in every concievable area. That specific book is a good reference regardless.

But more direct to the honing thing, that info has been in my old brain for more than a few years ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

On Randys motor I just built we did a compression test after warming the car up for the first time, so 5-6 min of run time and already had 175 across the board. And checked on the dyno after 45miles(and 500+whp at the time) and it was 190 so I would say breaking in a motor would have somthing to do with how long it will last, not just to get compression and hold power.

~John

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

As usual, this thread has gone way off topic, so considering that it sounds like there is enough question as to why breakin is important and what it's primary reasons are etc maybe we should start an engine building basics thread in the tech area and hit all these topics. People obviously need the help, this week we pulled apart 90LaserRST's motor and of course found stupid mis-informed mistakes on it as well. (Not done by him I am told)
but none the less if people are going to insist on doing this stuff themselves, maybe they should have a resource where they can get the info to do it right and understand why.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Building engines is your business.


Every business has their secrets... but also some businesses don't have morals and are greedy.

You informing us on your secrets proves what part of the small % of the businessses you fit in.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

I appreciate the comments E. I am actually more concerned that if people are going to do this, that they do it correctly. The "secrets" that matter for making more power and doing things at a higher level, still get reserved for customers. I really don't do "stock" rebuilds so me helping people with understanding the correct methods and what they should and shouldn't do and why won't effect my business in a negative way at all. I want to give to the community, but at the same time, there has to be a good reason why people bring their stuff to me, if I told everyone what I do or all I know, they would have no reason other than my overly careful practices. Regardless of what past employees and friends have seen over the last couple years, I only let them see what I want them to see, I keep the stuff I don't want to share pretty much to myself. There has been nobody up to this point that has utilized all the little tricks I know, there are a few in the very near future that have agreed and are willing. BTW, the options are only thrown out there for consumption after I find out what the goals the customer is after. Some stuff, if it isn't needed to reach the goals they set, just isn't brought up. They are all overbuilt anyway ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Then maybe you should explain to me why we found moly lube on the bottom half of my ARPS going into the block? Im pretty sure that is absolutley worthless and noob like. Maybe you should go back to small engines class, you clearly shouldnt have passed. Also, maybe you should go back to 1st grade english class. That is where they teach you to read ( Cough :: DIRECTIONS :: cough).

I barely passed small engines myself, and no the briggs didnt ever run!! haha, thats why I pay mike to build my engine ;)

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Last I checked one right plus one wrong doesn't equal two rights. Congratulations that the ARPs were installed correctly. Get off your horse.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

..good thing you built my motor, huh raptor? I think it's overkill at the moment though..I think a bigger fmic, turbo and injectors are in order..

-A. Swift

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Overkill is good isn't it ;) Much less in life to worry about.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

..very true..I just gotta fix the oil leaks, and fix the exhaust, and wait for that fuel rail, then tap the exhaust mani for the egt probe..arg..projects these days..lol

-A. Swift

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

OVRKILL

pretty good liscence plate!

my engine is so frickin bulletproof. :|

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

I am looking at the little piece of paper that comes in the ARP box...

First off, it says: Use ARP moly whenever possible... So considering its possible to use it in the block threads, I used it.

Second: Since most studs extend into the water jacket, coat threads with oil or ARP moly lubricant and screw in hand tight ONLY. NOTE: If permanent mounting is preferred, Loc-tite may be used, You may also use high temperature RTV silicon. Whatever product is used, it is imperative that the cylinder head is installed and torqued to the proper level. Install the gasket and head, then lubricate washers and nuts with oil or ARP moly prior to their installation.

Thats what it says on the little piece of paper that I just pulled out of a brand new box of ARP studs.


Like I said... I am not perfect, I dont know everything and I have done some stupid things before. Shit I do stupid things all the time. So if they are saying to install them wrong then I guess I am a fool for following directions and also doing what they taught me in school (Tech). I dont remember you being around much when I was puting YOUR motor in YOUR car. Oh wait you were sleeping, thats right! When you knew I was doing all the work for free to help a fellow DSMer out who needed to get his car running. Then you got pissed at me cause I couldnt make it up one weekend and you really wanted your car done. Then when I got the car running, what happened? You stopped talking to me... Never called anymore, wouldnt return calls, not even a Thank you. You did help me get that turbo from Peter (Eclipseturbo I believe it is) which I appreaciate very much since I was in pretty much despirate need of a turbo. But it seems as if you just were going to use me and didnt give a fuck about anything once your car was running. You must be too good for me, sorry I am not a professional engine builder and I was the cause of your motor going to shit. Also, I would like to know how that affected your motor? What did it do to it? Cause I guess I cant do it right, might as well learn from it.

Re: Drop the freaking wrench already!
 

Sounds like you took that to heart jakey :) Too bad I was just screwin around. Its not like putting the moly lube there is bad, it just doesnt do anything lol. And since you love to give me shit I decided to give you some. And for the record, i still talk to your ass lol. And you werent the reason the engine went to shit! It was from sitting too long and the cylinder walls were pretty fucked ;) You need to calm down. I thought your original post was funny.. that was where this came from.