buying an Intercooler
 

Alrighty,
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this thread but I figured since an intercooler is inline with turbos this would be the best place.
anyways
I've been kinda shopping around for intercoolers, asking some people about thier preference and such (mainly Matt). Matt pointed me in the direction of Dejon Tools, big front mount. I've heard some bad things about the end tanks of thier intercoolers but other then that not much else. My main question is does anybody here have any suggestions about intercoolers as far as who from, what kind, or anyother helpful ideas about them.
and lastly would it be a good idea to have it professionally installed, or how difficult it is to install yourself.
some info about my car:
92 talon AWD, big 16g, safc2, 550 injectors (may be upgrading in the near future) gm maf (i would like to set it up for blow through upper IC piping) and thats about it as far as upgrades go.
any suggestions would be very much apriciated :)

Depending on your price range, there are plenty of better options than Dejon. In fact, I would recommend against their ICs...
As far as professionally installed, it's really not that hard. Cut some bumper if necessary, bolt it on, and attach the pipes. However, if you wanted something custom-fabbed that would require professional installation and be really pretty, may I recommend QPR. You could get away with a smaller core to save some $$, assuming you intend to keep that setup.

well i'm thinking of changing the setup over time so I'd like somthing I could build on
I really don't want one of those tiny, almost side mount intercoooler. As far as price range goes dejons is $850 with all the piping, which I could handle, so anywhere around that

Buschur's economy 1G FMIC kit is $900. Nice core, decent end-tanks, black powdercoated pipes. I had basically the same kit but with polished SS pipes and all that was needed to run blow-through was a quick cut of a few inches off the top of the UICP.

One more thing, Dejon makes really nice intake pipes for the money, but I wouldn't run their IC pipes due to the VERY thin flanges, I've seen some that just won't stop leaking.

Just get a SLS kit. They're pretty much the same as buschur's but with a better price.

I recomend QPR too they make awsome intercoolers and are usually willing to work around your price range.

so i have one for bushers, one for SLS and on for QPR..... and it seems like no one likes dejon. I did talk to QPR a bit back, they said they could do it, installed for a prety decent price, and I know matt was happy with his install :)
any other suggestions???

I bought a core on ebay (30X7X3.25) for mighty cheap and had QPR do the piping... Works well, great price but in the end I think I would get a short route SLS or Buschur style FMIC. Custom IC's take a lot of time even though you might save a bit.

OnGreenPerformance has the cheapest FMIC setup I've seen, and GalantVR4.org members recommend them. $725 for a full setup. You can purchase a 3" GM MAFT piping for an add'l $60. www.ongreenperformance.com

QPR is da bomb, but I lust daily for a Buschur FMIC, street or race core.

Thanks for all the comments from our friends/customers, much appreciated.

For the IC, Most of the differences in costs between the various kits/setups are going to be in the materials and Manufacturing. SS Piping is still going to be the best from a thermal as well as durability and asthetic standpoint, but obviously is the most expensive. Manufacturing methods are going to be the next factor and of course installed or not is another cost variable. If you are just looking for a good inexpensive setup and don't mind doing the install and materials etc are not the big priority, I dont think you can beat SLS. If you want something that is installed and every detail is designed for your specific car, go custom and expect to pay a little more. In the end you may find it is worth it to you. There are going to be advantages and reasons to going either route, but it really depends on what you need. If you just want to go over various considerations and ideas, feel free to come down and we can discuss things in a bit more detail might be able to give you options you may not have considered. Other wise, I would recommend Nic's stuff as far as a kit goes.

Why is SS the best? Doesn't SS hold in heat? Why would you want SS over aluminum? You don't see aluminum in many kits because it costs $$$, but you often see it on race setups.

You have another vote for QPR IC and piping. I came by several days in a short amount of time and basically watched them do a custom IC piping job on a black 2g that will be one of our sites better cars. The welds are absolutely perfect. You cant even really tell that they are there. I would strongly recommend having them get you the IC and do the fabing for the pipes because they do awesome work and will hook you up the best to their capablities for your budget. Goodluck.

I guess I've always thought aluminum wouldn't be as good of a choice, because it doesn't insulate as well, maybe letting the engine heat slightly heat up the air inside the piping before it gets to the TB. I guess I wouldn't think it's enough to make some huge difference, but I wouldn't pay more when it works worse. But if I'm wrong, then please correct me.

If your IC is efficient at cooling the air, you will have more trouble with alluminum heatsoaking off the engine etc. SS works much like shielded piping, keeps the cool air in the pipe and the hot air from heat soaking. SS is more expensive than alluminum typically also which is why you see less of it. Alluminum is much easier to work with but it is inferior to SS or even shielded steel for IC piping.

Allumnum is not a good insulator, rather it is good at transferring heat, exactly the opposite of what you want in IC piping.

Hence why the cores are made from aluminum. In my mind, you would want aluminum piping from the turbo to the IC to help transfer some of the heat created by the turbo, and SS from the IC to the throttle body to better shield the cooled air from the underhood temps. I suppose to do this properly, intake temps would need to be taken both before and after the core, along with in the engine bay and the intake air at the throttle body. If you have a "cold-air intake" setup on a car, SS piping would also seem to make more sense (although aluminum is far lighter....everything is a trade-off).

Chris, your thinking isn't far off at all, SS is also better for intake piping. As far as the piping between the compressor and the IC, it should still be SS, reason being that it will also prevent heat soak from the exhaust system in most cases. The other thought is that before the IC, it would be worth while to keep the temp from fluctuating from the compressor outlet as much as possible so the velocity doesn't change and no energy is lost to help fill the IC. If the IC is efficient, it will do it's job and make the air colder and more dense and the better thermal properties of the SS will keep the charge as consitant as possible to the TB. As far as the weight advantage of aluminum, everyone by now knows how much into weight reduction I am, I would never sacrifice better power in the name of weight savings. The difference in weight is not nearly enough to justify the loss of efficiency of the intercooler and piping.

The only other thing I want to say and it isn't to slam anyone or otherwise, just a personal belief that I have and feel pretty strongly about. When Shane mentioned the fact that many racers run alluminum what I have to say about that is this, following the same ideas that faster cars do is smart to some degree but then you are relying on their decisions and logic and it won't allways be right (not that anyones always is). A lot of the things I see even 8 second cars doing isn't always optimum. To find things that work better and be able to run faster, sometimes you have to do your own research and dig into things that maybe they have not considered important and in the end be the leader yourself rather than the follower. Following the typical standards is a good way to hit known performance levels, you have to choose your battles, do the things that are proven 100% for sure, but if you follow the same things everyone does, the bar will never get raised. Someone always has to be pushing for more.

And after saying all that, I will also say Shane is a very smart person and a good leader in this field, No disrespect is intended whatsoever. And I know he does more than his fair share of research into going faster and has a proven setup that speaks for itself, that comment just made me want to put the last thoughts out there to hopefully make people think about progress in our hobby/trade rather than a lot of blind following.

Once that SS piping gets hot and it will, it stays hot. Alum cools down down pretty quick compared to SS. Most of the better cold air intakes for other cars on the market are made from alum instead of steel. The cheap ones are always chromed steel. Do you think the aftermarket intake manifolds should be made of SS instead of alum?

All in all do you thinks any of these factors are really going to matter for what this particular person is going to use them for? For say in a 1/4 mile pass your only going to generate so much heat and its not really going to dissipate or cool down when your 100% throttle the whole time. So for say aluminum cools faster but there is no point @ which there isn't constant heat applied to it. I could see there being a bigger difference for say a road race car where your not constantly @ 100% throttle. IMO honest opinion i dont see there being much of a diff between alum/SS for this particular application for the everyday user. On a racecar where you're looking for every last possible ounce then yeah maybe.

Yea, it is a moot point anyways. Kinda like removing the coolant lines from your TB because you think it's going to make the air cooler.

That is true however if the conditions that caused it to get hot still exist, the alluminum is going to transfer that heat into the intake charge as opposed the the SS which does not exchange heat in the same fasion. If you are talking about running at the track, between rounds, there is adequate time to cool SS piping and the likelyhood of it heatsoaking is less. It takes longer to heat soak the pipe and even after it is hot, it still will not transfer that heat into the intake charge more than alluminum otherwise intercooler cores and radiators would be made from SS. Alluminum is much less expensive to manufacture which is why larger companies like APC and Injen make intakes from alluminum, they take manufacturing costs into consideration considering volume of parts and marketing to the masses. That and polishing SS is more expensive and you don't have the options to anodize in lots of pretty colors that the majority of our markets seem to like over performance even. Buschur's intake pipe is SS as well for the same reason's I mention, not for ease of manufacture, rather because it is better. As far as intake manifolds being made from SS, they can be, and it would be effective but the fabrication required to make a decent manifold that didn't look like ass would be cost prohibutive to too many customers and beyond the capabilities of most shops. In either material, I would want the intake insulated from the head to stop heat transfer to keep it from maintaining a higher temperature. I have actually considered making my intake out of SS because I don't have to worry about the cost of manufacture and trying to make the price attractive enough to sell to the public.

Also, just like weight reduction, if the goal is to dominate, effects are cumulative. Not for the daily driver, but thats not who we market to anyway. If anyone was confused on this, we push to work more specifically on race type apps that care about getting every ounce as opposed to DD's. Keeping the entire intake charge system as dense and cool as possible should be the goal of any racer as well as (at least for drag racing) taking weight reduction into all areas to keep overall effect as much as possible. Depends on the goals, if average is okay, don't push for more and deal with the people that do take everything into consideration, they will be the tail lights you see ;)

Buy nitrous, it's COLD!!

I do like that idea!

If you're really worried about heatsoak on a pipe in which pressurized air runs through at Mach something, cover your piping with a heat reflective wrap. I don't think aluminum or SS makes one bit of difference on our cars.

I'll trade my SS pipes for matching aluminum pipes if someone's got them. But not some hokey Dejon crap.

I am in total agreement with Mike on this subject. I am going to be making 2 SS intake manifolds very soon, the flanges are being made right now.

One thing I haven't seen as much on this subject is insualted IC pipes. I could see this helping a lot, but noone ever does it. Probably just because it looks kind of ghetto, but it definately would help.

I can see both sides, and they both make good points.

Lord knows I can think about stuff, "over think" about stuff and go totally extreme at times. Poor ecoli has probably popped a few headache remedies since I started talking to him about turbos (sorry about that ecoli ;) ). I think there are many factors leading to the correct answers for this.

Several things come to mind, first would be what is the purpose of the part in question?

Intercoolers are designed to maximize the air-to-air or air-to-water transfer of heat by ways of increased contact with the metal by way of turbulence which is purposely caused by internal design of the cores . I think it would be very important to take every bit of opportunity to help with that effect.

Intercooler piping is a means to move the air from one place to another. I'm sure that there is some effect from the different metals used, but in our applications, would we really see a difference? The air flow is so fast that there really is not much time/contact with the intercooler pipes to really make a difference. I would like to see somebody do a controlled test inviroment (Raptor?) to really find out. Most intercooler routing is really short. To see if there is a difference you would have tap and read temps at each end of each pipe under boosting conditions to find out. I would think the biggest benefit would come from just insulating the pipes with a reflective temp wrap.

As Raptor said, if the added weight kills the benefit from the increased efficiency, what's the point?

I am waiting now on a digital manometer so I can do in car on road testing of pressure drop, I could probably setup a twin IAT setup that is similar in design to check out the temp differences as well in real world situations.

The one thing about this that you have to always go back to is just the laws of thermodynamics, it is proven beyond question that aluminum is a better thermal conductor and SS is a better thermal insulator, the IC needs to be a conductor to transfer heat in either air to air or air to liquid configs, the piping is a conduit for moving the air and should be an insulator so it isn't effected by external thermal impact and if it is, a metal with better insulating properties will transfer less of that heat into the internally moving air regardless of the temperature of the pipe's material. If it effects the air moving through it to a noticable degree is the question I think is most relevant. I will find out so there is no longer a need for wonder. For now I am still going to lean toward the side of logic and thermal dynamics and believe that it is worth taking the extra steps for the best possible scenario.

For the little bit of difference in cost, why not do it the right way and use SS? As far as weight, we are talking what, 2 lbs. difference for all of the IC pipes? Even if the intake temps are 1 degree cooler it would probably make a bigger difference than 2 lbs.

I've had good luck with my Hahn front mount with my own custom piping. Good price and has worked well for my setup. I'm not going for super crazy horse power so I didn't feel like spending big dollar for an intercooler.

As far as piping, I had the Archer UICP and just tied into that. In my opinon, the speed of the air in the intercooler is moving so fast that the actual material used for the piping won't make a siqnificant difference. The piping I made, I simply had powdercoated black and put it in. Like I said, the cold side is a bit longer and utilizes the Archer UICP, however, it dosnt' run directly next to the engine(pro's and con's).

The choice is yours as to what you use. I'm guessing that unless someone specificlly says one company sucks horrificly, most places seem to make a descent setup. Just find somthing that works close to the budget you have.

One thing that will probably really effect how hot the air is entering your intercooler is if the piping exits the turbo and goes right in front of the O2 housing/DP. If it does it will take the heat radiating of it and absorb it. My IC piping goes the other way, this setup might be longer but I think the temp differences would be pretty drastic compared to having a "short route" piping system that passes right next to the really hot exhaust. (Unless you insulate the piping in that location.

Cool, lets use concrete then....oh wait, it does make a difference. Cores are made from aluminum for a reason.

On another note, piping and intake manifolds should be made out of carbon fiber :)

you can get some bomb-diggity cool fibber intake mannis for honduhs, someday maybe our cars will be cool like them

Yeah...and they actually work really well too.

Uhh, I did that three years ago, I didn't notice any real difference, but I wasn't exactly testing down to a 1 horsepower difference either. I plan on testing it again with my new setup this spring just for grins, I don't think it'll make any real difference except maybe off-idle.

We can guess and speculate all day as to how effective this type of stuff is all day and it won't answer the question I have my beliefs on it, obviously others have different ideas as well. I will start testing this stuff in January so the answer isn't that far off. I will be able to check anyones setup on their car so the guys who want to try insulating wrap etc will also know how effective thier setup is, I will make sure I have a duplicatable course to test with so the results can be compared fairly as well. It is worth it to me to do this in the quest for more power so I want to get the most accurate testing procedure possible.

So just for the sake of discussion, what do you consider a worthwhile gain? 1 degree of difference? 5? What would it take for the guys who are serious about power on this board to justify the difference in cost/weight for SS over anything else? And why?

Obviously some materials work better in certain locations. I'm just trying to help out with the original question posted as to what to go with for an intercooler. I don't recall seeing in the original post as to find somting with carbon fiber piping or go with a light gauge steel. Me personally, I can't justify spending $500 more for a horespower gain of maybe 5-10. Sounds like the guy looking for the intercooler to use dosn't want to spend a fortune on his setup to run some descent numbers. If you plan on running your car into the 9's then by all means make your intercooler pipes with carbon fiber to match your bling bling manifold.

I would think it would need to be upwards of 3 degrees to make an impact, in performance or in information. But that is such an ambiguous figure... what does 3 degrees, or 5 degrees, or whatever it is, mean in the grand scheme of things? Ultimately the aspiration is more HP and quicker times... the only way to get the full satisfaction and understanding is to test it on the track.