http://www.enesg.com/gallery/albums/...0199.sized.jpg

Ok, i hear all people complaining about greddy large fmic how its bad and all that.. how its MILE LONG tiny piping..

If you look the pipe on the top is 2 1/2 inch, and inlet is also 2 1/2 but the only tiny pipe is the turbo to the intercooler pipe.. now think about it... turbo outlet on most turbo's is 2" anyways.. what wold be the point of it going over the 2" of pipe until it reaches the intercooler anyways?


about the only thing i could see they could of changed is taken the 90 degree on the turbo and spun it the other way around so that it can go by the exhaust get heated up even more.. and then go thru the intercooler, that would shorten the piping by about 20" thats about it....

-E

Plenty of people have gone very fast on the large GReddy FMIC. Remember that this is the same core used for the Skyline. The only benefit for shorter piping is quicker spool up and more of a straight shot. But this reduces the volume of the plenum charge available after the turbo. Larger pipes will slow down the velocity of the air flow which will reduce air temps slightly and reduce flow resistance. But 2.5 inch pipe is still bigger than the 60mm throttle plate.

I would like to see side by side numbers of a system with only the pipes being changed.

how about not having the piping blocking the top 1/4 of the intercooler? or better yet, having the inlet on the right of that pic and the outlet on the left? what's the pressure drop on the greddy?

yeah, it looks like it's on backwards.

That top part is blocked by the bumper anyway.

he needs speed holes.

Well side mounts must not do anything at all since they are blocked by more than a pipe.

I think the air will get around that pipe, and it isn't really that much of the surface area.

Unless things have changed or get a custom set up this is the best fmic on market for 2g. I have it on my car. I still use the bumper. Just cut out the area on bottom of bumper so air will go around pipe and get that last 1/8 area. With 1g engine, 20g turbo I have never seen egt go above 1200, even under heavy driving and load. I cut out about 1/3 of my front bumper. Takes away strength, but not much.

I see the clamps your using from picture. I suggest T-Bolt clamps if your running allot psi. I think you can get them at QPR or others. When I went over 18psi they just will blow off every 5-10 miles under boost and thats annoying.

what do EGT temps have to do with IC?

They don't, his car is just running far too rich.

Heavy-duty worm drive clamps can handle just about anything you throw at them. I personally don't like T-bolt clamps, too expensive and a real PITA to tighten/loosen.

Without fmic my egt temp was too high. Most of my modifications I have done once at at time so I WOULD SEE THE EFFECTS. I have never had to worry about T-Bolt clamps coming loose. I did have problems with the ones in the picture. No matter how much you tighten they would come loose and the t-bolts are easier to tighten. My car is not running rich, Tuned it recently WOT after new cylinder head on dyno chasis. Take this advice and use it or don't. Just trying to help.

if you are seeing 1200f max egt either you are making no power or your probe is nowhere near the exh runners. if you're seeing max 1200c you're detonating or running stupidly rich. if you have properly beaded IC pipes worm-drive clamps won't blow off.

if you want a good fmic setup try indyracecores (not sure if they ever became reliable on production again though), RNR out of san diego, dougs dyno power, and a few others. all make great 2g setups with nicely routed piping and good core/endtank setups

Heavy-duty worm drive clamps can handle just about anything you throw at them. I personally don't like T-bolt clamps, too expensive and a real PITA to tighten/loosen. [/b][/quote]
Your kidding right? T bolts are cheap for what they do and they are super easy to get on and off. Just as easy as worm clamps. Napa carries T-Bolts for 2-3 bucks depending on size.


If you want to go all out we also carry wiggins clamps but that's a whole differant ball game. Big money.

Quote (illz @ may 6 2004, 10:31pm)
if you are seeing 1200f max egt either you are making no power or your probe is nowhere near the exh runners. if you're seeing max 1200c you're detonating or running stupidly rich. if you have properly beaded IC pipes worm-drive clamps won't blow off.

First, I have greddy fmic, it has properly beaded pipes, ALL do, without t-bolt clamps my old hose clamps would not hold up on dyno after 18psi. T-bolt have better clamping force. Second I use pyrometer egt f * 100 gauge from autometer, sensor taped on manifold runner off of #1 cylinder. Gauge goes from 0-16. Under heavy load never seen it go past 13. Made 380whp on dyno chasis with my set-up and a/f ratio wot from 4.5 rpm-8.0 is avg. 12.0, almost straight linear line. Car is tuned correctly and runs great on c16. Again I think Greddy fmic is very good, probably even better ones now offered in the aftermarket.

if you are seeing 1200f max egt either you are making no power or your probe is nowhere near the exh runners. if you're seeing max 1200c you're detonating or running stupidly rich. if you have properly beaded IC pipes worm-drive clamps won't blow off.

if you want a good fmic setup try indyracecores (not sure if they ever became reliable on production again though), RNR out of san diego, dougs dyno power, and a few others. all make great 2g setups with nicely routed piping and good core/endtank setups [/b][/quote]
NO NO NO NO STAY AWAY FROM INDY RACE CORES!!!!!

They are very hard to get in touch with. Also the fact that a very good friend of mine ordered 1500 dollars worth of stuff from them almost a year and a half ago and the stuff still hasn't showed up. The guy more or less dissapeared after the order was made and he won't send the stuff or money back... to make a long story I have heard alot of bad stuff about ken ( I think it is his name ) at IRC and my friend is in the process of sueing him.

Your EGT's should be higher than 1300 deg F. You say you are tuned right, how do you know? Your AFR's may be right, but then you need more timing if your EGT's are that low. Heat = expansion = power.

Also, what was discussed earlier, why the bigger piping for the intake pipe to the IC? Vicious had it right, but didn't elaborate on it, the resistance in piping is cumulative. The longer the piping, the more resistance and the smaller the piping, the more resistance. So short, large piping is the best. This is also why people can make huge HP on a stock 1g TB. It is not very long, so the restriction isn't outrageous, but it is still a significant restriction.

I think you may have things a little mixed up, this is just my opinion, the Greddy FMIC might be and probably is the MOST POPULAR, but I am don't think it performs the best anymore. There are a few I can think of that just have a lot better design just by looking at them. Personally I have the Apexi Skyline GTR FMIC and just by looking at the end tank design and the way the intercooler piping runs would make it seems way more practical and efficient. Or even the Victory FMIC looks like it has a lot better design than the Greddy. People have went really fast and made a lot of power on the Greddy though so it must be a good intercooler, however I don't think they have made many strides to change with the ever changing market.

And yeah atleast if you buy the Greddy you will probably get it within a decent amount of time if at all. I have heard some horror stories about the other FMIC's.

Maybe Brian (Slowwhite) can tell you about the two FMIC's, he switched from the large Greddy to a Apexi Skyline just like the one thats in my car. So Brian which one do you like better?

CRAIG

Gredy small or large? the small is pretty small bytheway
-E

I ran a Greddy Large 24Row FMIC with a HRC S20G turbo

Ran it at 20psi on 92 oct daily for 3 years during the 4th summer I played with 22-25psi on 92 oct daily. using the Standard couplers with "0" problems of Pipes blowing off, when I actually pressed the pipes together correctly. If I did a slack job they'd blow off.

My car put down 321whp Maxed out on pump. I have over 150 pulls on the dyno with this set up through out those 4 years

My setup up:
HRC S20G complete kit
HRC I/C piping
Greddy 24Row FMIC
Blitz BOV
HKS 264/272 cams
BPR7ES Spark Plugs
Magnacore 8.5mm Wires
Walboro 255 Fuel Pump
Used 550's, 660's, and 850's Inj (changed up twice during the 4th summer)
SAFC
ARP's
Clutch Masters Stg 3 Clutch
Ported 2G Exhaust manifold
MBC
EGT on the #1 runner

When I was at Tuned for Max HP on pump gas. My EGT's were at 1300 during Cruise, and at 1575 at WOT.

When I first started Tuning - I was told you have to tune so that your EGT's Gradually go up as you go through the gears.

Wel I started at 1000 and by the end of a WOT run I was at 1375. - I took that tune to the dyno and put down a wooping 255whp 20psi on 92 oct.


As for the Greddy FMIC - I changed it up to the SKYLINE GTR FMIC because it flows better. and use's Shorter/Larger Piping.

And since I was planning on running a Much larger turbo then the 20G I needed a better FMIC.

But I will say this - Jeremy suprised me when he put down 470whp with an FP Green and Greddy 24 Row FMIC at elite on C-16. But I think he had upgraded to larger I/C piping?

Most most people will say a greddy 24 Row is good up to a 20G Sized turbo anything larger and you'll need to upgrade.

I'll say this. - I beat the living hell out my My GS-T every single day I drove it. (why modify if you don't plan to use it)

Personally I think the GTR is an all around Better FMIC. Contstruction, Design, Flow, etc. It didn't change HP much for a turbo the size of a 20G but for the larger turbo I'm going to be running I have no doubt it will be a huge difference.

-brian

I was talking about the large one Enes.

CRAIG

Quote (Jet @ may 7 2004, 9:26 am)
mmm, certainly got me thinking. If I add more timing then I have with dsm link at high rpm's I will get adverse effects. We added as much as we could, but she started pulling (ecu). Under load a/f ratio good, no knock, timing avg. 18-20 and o2 voltage .94 at 20 psi. Maybe if I drove for more then a minute under full boost I would see higher egt, but I have never done that, never auto crossed. Egt gauge goes from 0-16. If I get to 13, where are you at 0-16? Again, I did mention there are probably better fmic's out there. I feel greddy is one of the best for 2g.

Mine goes to 16 also.


Like I said my EGT's are constantly at 1300-1350 during cruise, and go up under WOT.

At the top of MY RPMS (8000, I also use DSMLINK V2 now) - they sit at about 1550 now.


For me on pump gas More timing = more knock, so we left my timing settings at Zero or during some runs we pulled timing by 1 in the upper RPMS.

I was seeing 15-18 degree's of timing at WOT at the end of a run.

Bah, that is just like Chris C. last year. You have NO idea what your AFR's really are. Get a wideband or go to the dyno. Until you do you are untuned or 1/2 assed tuned. The DSMlink is guessing what your AFR is, just like the stock MAF tried to do. It obviously changes from car to car and there is no real feedback without a WB02.

Quote (JET may 7 2004, 1:18 pm)
I explained before. Tuned car on dyno with wideband, how else can you know what a/f ratio is. Dsm link shows around 9.5 a/f under load because using stock o2. I have wideband installed in car to give me reference while driving, bunged on o2 housing along with stock o2, bunged on o2 housing. I have never tuned on street, probably take out 2-5 pedestrians or something, hell I would not have a engine anymore, how can you drive half ass tuned. Who the hell is Chris C. Anyone who knows me knows I am always thinking about the car and never satisfied with it. I am usually a nervous reck tuning on dyno. Always have help. Don't enjoy it until 3-4 pulls where you are safe. With the new cylinderhead this spring I was lien first two pulls. Some of the other reasons I have low egt is because aftermarket oil cooler, fuel cooler, radiator. I have spent way too much money on my car. Again a good fmic will have a cause and effect and bring down temp. of engine, dah. Greddy is a good one.

oh a fuel cooler too?
those really help on the dyno!!!!!
-E

Quote (Enes May 7 2004, 3:10 pm)
[QUOTE]oh a fuel cooler too?
those really help on the dyno!!!!!

Are you implying a fuel cooler does not help? Brings down temp., but not enough to matter. Just paid for the lines and installed. Friend had core laying around. Oil cooler really makes big difference when driving. Nothing really helps a great deal on dyno because your not moving, dah. No air unless you have fans in front and good ventilation in dyno room. Why I dynoed at Hitech Motorsports up in Ramsey. New facility and expensive ventilation and 2 fans. One for fmic and oil cooler. Fans are there, why not use them. Elite probably has fans too. The oil cooler is from B&M along with sandwich and lines. Eay to install.

Why did you reference a .94 O2 voltage if you have a wideband in the car?? That doesn't make any sense why you would even pay attention to a narrow band O2 sensor and not state what your WB02 was reading. Also, DSMlink should be approximating the AFR's from the fuel going in and the air going in. It shouldn't have anything to do with the stock O2 sensor. There should be a seperate logging input for that.

Also, a WB02 bunged that close has proven to be inaccurate in other applications. They should be 12" - 16" from the turbo.

Stay on topic or all of this will be edited down to post that relate to the Greddy Intercoolers and piping.

Anybody can start a new thread in Advanced Tech if they would like to discuss WB O2's and such further.

yeah, no.

are your wrists more than an inch in diameter? tighten them more.

1300F peak in runner #1? that has nothing to do with your IC and everything to do with your car not running as well as it should, or it's time to replace your dying, innaccurate EGT probe. If you're using an autometer EGT gauge and have your probe in the manifold, that's a problem right there. How are you going to see spikes over 900C when the gauge tops out at 870C? This is why people use greddy egt gauges when they have the probe in the manifold (and it's pretty useless unless it's in the manifold).

a) O2 housing is not a good location for a WB O2. Should be farther from the turbo.
b ) thinking != knowing
c) oil cooler, radiator, and whatever the hell a fuel cooler is, don't change your EGT, unless they are curing knock, which they shouldn't be, unless you were overheating before you added them.
d) people spend a lot of money to put body kits on their car too. money doesn't make the car run better or your brain more knowledgable.
e) good FMIC will not bring down the temp of the engine. it will bring down the temp of the air going into the engine, which, under optimal conditions, will still be exhausting at the same temp. Do you think colder intake air makes the explosion in the cylinder colder?? If it did, it would be counter-productive, as less heat = less energy = less power.


(edited cause my b ) turned into a smiley :) )

Jason,


As you can tell most of us here are very spectical people. (we just deal with a lot of people who "think" they are in the "know" but really are clueless)


So with that said come out to Uni or to one of our events. - Bring the car and take someone or a spin. Cause that's the fastest and best way to back up what you say.


Sorry if we come off as Harsh it's just from what you're telling us, your car is the exception to just about everything that we've seen/proved ourselves. As you can hopefully tell this forum is full of some really knowledgable people, some who own Shops, work at shop, or have built/owned/tune there own cars to way above average HP numbers.