Modern Automotive Performance
 

Well here is my story, I'm sure I'll be flamed for it but whatever.
I ordered a 2.3L 6 bolt short block and new OEM oil pump last summer. It was supposed to be a simple build, well 2-3 months of waiting because they sold me a set of rods that they didn't even have in stock and didn't tell me about it for along time. So anyway I picked the motor up in the packaging that they put it in and that's where it sat until a week ago when it was ready to be installed.
The directions I got with it were to tighten the oil pump housing to 15ft pounds and then trim the edge of the gasket that will squeeze out. When I set my torque wrench to 15 it clicked instantly, so I turned to 17 and clicked again, then to 20 and 25, same thing. I noticed that the gasket had already been trimmed as well.
So 20 miles into the break-in oil just poured out of the timing cover, 2.5 quarts in a hundred feet it took me to get stopped and turn the motor off (I turned it off when I first saw the oil, I break-in with no hood as well to "check for leaks"). Well after a week of tracing the leak/s, I finally found the big problem.
First leak was detected when I took the timing belt off because it was covered in oil and needed to be cleaned. The leak was on the lower bolt hole of the belt tensioner. I knew this was not right so I put copper crush washers on either side of the bolt and it was fixed.
Second leak took a lot longer to track down because every time I'd pressurize the system with the drill it would take awhile to leak, but eventually I ended up pulling the gear off the pump and sure enough the seal was messed up (not blaming MAP) and the shaft had play in it.
I called MAP and told them of the problem and they decided that there are too many variables (blaming me) for them to have any part of the responsibility.
A little back ground on me and the car (91 AWD Talon): I graduated from the Automotive Service Program at Northwest Technical College with a 4.0 GPA in 1.5 years. I have been a machinist for the past 3 years and know that everything must be kept 100% clean prior to and during assembly, so I have a clean room to do so. I've worked on countless Talons and an Evo or two in the last decade and never had an issue that would be something to be blamed on me.
The reason for the motor being purchased was a spun bearing on the last built motor from SLS that lasted 3000 miles. So when I ordered the new motor I also brought the head down to be fully disassembled and cleaned by them as well.
The turbo was shot so I got a brand new one from Precision with brand new Earls pre-filter kit. Brand new oil filter housing, and any oil lines....long story short on the motor anything that touched oil was purchased new and kept packaged until assembly.
So I took pics of the damage to the oil pump and gave them a call, they told me that there are too many variables so they will accept zero responsibility and all they can do to "help" is to order me up a new oil pump (at my cost).


I thought they were good guys from what I hear on here and on the street. Also when I was ordering the motor they told me how they stand behind every build and if anything were to ever go wrong (which they said they have never had a problem with anything they've touched) that they would do anything they could to help me out. Well big talk and no action when the time came.

Edit: I spoke with Chris this morning, the conversation started out pretty heated. After about 30 minutes of back and fourth we both came to an agreement and he is working to try to help me out. Any of the previous shops I've dealt with in the past decade, besides AMS and ExtremePSI (DSM Summit not really a shop), have screwed me over in the past and have never came back to try to make things right. So as of right now I will wait and see how things play out and if they do right by me I will give them more chances in the future.
I really like to see "local" business (by which I mean Minnesota, not local to me because I'm four hours away) succeed and support them when I can.
That is all for now!

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Pics of the damaged pump

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

This should have been in the good guy/bad guy section.

Anyways, I had a similar situation with MAP last year with a transmission I bought from them, the car only turned the front wheels after installation, then the blame game ensued. No discount, refund, or return because it was a used part that "worked perfectly" when it left their shop and it was "impossible" for them to warranty used parts. Buying a part that never worked in the first place, then getting refused a refund, discount, or return will leave anyone with a pretty sour taste in their mouth.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Yeah sorry I though I had clicked good/bad guy.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Wow I cant believe they wont step up and give you a hand...
Sorry for your loss. I hope it works out for ya man!

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Thanks dude.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I moved the thread. Good/bad guy feedback section is for individual member feedback only, our sponsor shops have their own sections for a reason.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Yeah, and when I clicked a previous good guy/bad guy thread and then clicked something to start new I thought I was clicking on same section. Sorry again.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

That does sound kinda crappy :( Not that this matters, why didn't you try building the engine yourself?

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Because I wanted a tested and true 1000awhp motor that will stand the test of time. When I first called to order it I had narrowed my build possibilities to AMS, Buschur, and MAP (not as well know). I had done business with AMS in the past (not bad people) and had spoken with David Buschur and he acted like a real prick on the phone. So I made a call to MAP and they sounded amazing over the phone and have had friends that do business there and they had nothing but good things to say.
So being that they were more local than the others and the fact that I wanted to support a "underdog" business to give them a chance.....

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

That's how you know you're talking to the right guy. :D

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Sorry to hear about the bad expierence. That would make my stomach turn. I bought a oil feed line for my talon. I got it very quick I was happy at first. So I went out to the garage to install the line. The oil line was to short and the fittings were wrong. So I returned the line thinking that they could get me the correct line just a fast they got me the wrong one. It took about 3 to 4 weeks. They said it wasn't there problem. It is there problem if you are sell parts that you are getting for another company you should make sure the shit is right. Did they offer a discount on the new oil pump? DB performance is the place to go.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Yeah I love DB and that's where I get all my tuning done, Shane is the man, he has been doing my tuning since the days of Elite.
I've had the same thing happen with lines being the wrong part before from ExtremePSI and when I call them up they say don't bother returning it and then they overnight me the correct parts at no cost to me. I try to get all my parts possible from them, I've spent $15k over the years at ExtremePSI and have never had one bad experience in the 50 or so dealings.
Yes MAP did offer to get me the new pump at cost, and when I asked if it would be at my doorstep tomorrow when I first called them they made it sound like it wouldn't be a problem. But upon them calling me back to give me the bad news about how they're not going to help me out in anyway except to sell me a new pump at cost, but they wont know when I'll get it.
Edit: See first post edit.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

+1 for Extremepsi. I do most of my shopping through them. They have the best prices, fast responses through email, and fastest free shipping.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

That front cover was way too tight if it was over 30 ft/lbs, unless your torque wrench is way off. That could possibly cause your problem with the oil pump gears eating into the case.

And I'm a bit stumped on the lower tensioner bolt, that sure shouldn't have any oil coming out of it.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Yes you are totally right that it shouldn't have been tightened that much, which is why I took it off and got a brand new gasket and redid it myself to spec. I guess I forgot to mention that part in my initial ramblings.
Also I still have yet to understand the part about the oil in the bolt hole as well, since the new gasket I put on didn't have any spots in it showing where oil would've went past it into the through hole for the bolt and I also considered the possibility that the block may have been cracked through that hole but that doesn't seem to be the case either.
If I can't solve that mystery then the copper crush washers may just be the fix. We shall see when it goes back together again in a few days.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I dont believe tightening the front cover too tight would cause your oil pump to wear like it did. It would literally have to bend the front cover to be able to cause abnormal wear.

On the other hand tightening the back gear over where the balance shaft came out, too tight, could cause gear endplay too be too tight on the gear and it would chew up as it did.

Show us a pic of the front cover assembly, I want to see if its a legit Mitsu pump.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

In on page 1 :) That is weird that you depict MAP as people who refused to help you out, the guys I know there do not seem like they would be like that. Who did you talk to?

Setting the cars hardware problems aside; at times a business should eat parts or labor (even if fault cannot be determined) to maintain or strengthen their reputation. At the end of the day in the performance car world that can make or break a business. You cannot tangibly determine how much money would be lost by not keeping a customer happy, but usually the business will lose out in the end if the bad experience is broadcasted through forums and such.

I can't speak specifics but I work in an environment where reputation is everything, and there are seminars I have been to where they should charts of potential loss of losing one customer over a bad experience could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars respectively.

There are times where we know a customer is 100% wrong, but we meet them at a point where they are satisfied and will be a returning customer. Turning your back and admitting no fault (not sure that it actually happened in this case) is very dumb business practice and nothing good will come of it.

If the oil pump cost $300, they don't replace it (even if fault cannot be determined), the next time the customer wants a $3000 motor built, plus bolt ons and tuning undoubtedly they will go elsewhere; at that point the $300 oil pump is trivial.

My opinion. But again until MAP responds it would be ignorant to put blame on anyone.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I had that same issue on a car before. I put sealant on the bolt and put in back in, which fixed it; seemed weird as I'd not had that issue before.

Sucks to hear of your issues; I sure hope the rest of the engine is good.

Definitely agree with the post above mine, how they should work to satisfy you as their customer even if they are positive it was your fault 100% and 0% theirs (and they should be able to explain in detail how they came to that conclusion). I don't necessarily agree with the saying 'the customer is always right' or however it goes, but there is some truth in that if you want the all important word of mouth advertising and return customers.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

YUP, SAME BULLSHIT about modern over here. LAST 2 YEARS messing with modern, spent 8-10k in parts, blame games, thought we stole parts that we already had paid for them to install, run there shop with 8 guys on the computer and one guy wrenching in back!! dan, refuses that we have a 7bolt 1g motor in our 94, ordering wrong parts, told me our 94 talon is STOCK but has a E85 conver, 880cc, 3'' IC w/ buscher FMIC, everything short of a sheet medal intake. HA.. refused 10k job on our dodge stealth like we weren't big enough for there 'under dog' shop. HA. gave MY keys to another customer before. omg i could go on. i do my own work now. i figured all the money i invested for the mistakes these shops make,(modern the worst), i rather take my own risks and invested time in learning how 'to go fast' MY DAM SELF. I hope modern chimes in, they know who I AM. I been SCREWED the most by them.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Take a pic of the oil pump/front cover. I want to see if its OEM.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Hmm, this thread is interesting. I haven't heard a single thing bad about them until now.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

This is a first for me too.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

This is the First for me also. MAP took good care of my car. i spent like 3 grand there and till now the car is still in good running shape for 3 years. Sorry to hear about your built.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

So you/they used a gasket on the pump cover?

I'm pretty darn sure you arent supposed to use a gasket on that cover at all.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

On the small gear cover no. Im pretty sure hes talking about the oil pump front cover assembly.

But yes with a gasket there would be too much gear endplay. Also it could of had too much preload if those bolts on the small gear cover were too tight.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Here are the pics of the front of the cover. And the pic of the brown seal is the original seal. I replaced it yesterday with a black one that I had laying around (new) to see if it still leaked. That was before I took the pump off the block to find that it was messed up.
The DOH lettering on the front matches the other 2 old Mitsu pumps I have laying around.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Hmmm, in for MAP's side of the story...i like to hear both before i try to make a judgment.


Edit: ^ There we go.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Thanks for clearing things up Chris. If he did the assembly himself there is nothing you can do, that would be like asking Mitsu to warranty an aftermarket built engine.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

What does an oil pump cost to purchase and install? If it isn't enough to keep you from eating then I'd buy one and move on. There's nobody on this forum that hasn't had surprise expenses related to their car.

There's a reason I'm driving the `94 Plymouth right now.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Surprises, i haven't had one yet...


We aren't flaming you OP fyi, just saying that things like this happen in the automotive world. I still don't know how everything went down, but it seems like there was some miss communication along the way.

What you described is exactly the final reason for me going with a single shop for my motor build, because frankly i didn't want to have one build it and one tune it and then a blame game to follow if something went wrong.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't their an issue with either missing dowel pins or shifter bushings that was causing your problem? Either way, that transmission was taken from a perfectly running car just days before, and again we had no hand in the installation of the part, what would you suggest to be the proper course of action?

I simply don't believe that anyone here said "It's not our problem" that's just not how we do business. However, we do heavily rely on other companies in some scenarios like this, if there was a backorder or something out of our control I don't know what else we could have done to rectify the situation quicker for you :( We would have happily refunded you in full so that you could have sourced the line elsewhere if you desired...

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Shifter bushings which were replaced by Alex and the car still failed to turn the rear wheels. Not sure what either dowel pins or bushings have to do with making wheels turn, but whatever. The car DID run perfectly, just only turned the front wheels.

I also drove the car down there, then was told it was not drivable for the way home. Not sure why that was either. That was also the second time I made time out of my schedule,the first was the time I had a pickup time arranged, only to see the car in pieces in the back when I got there and not one mechanic in sight.

As far as the proper course of action, make me an offer. :)

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

What I meant is that the car the transmission came from worked perfectly, rear wheels as well. With that said, being that we didn't perform the installation how do you expect me to warrant a used part that was sold in perfect working order as witnessed by several of my staff (the car in question is my fiance's cousins car that she had been driving for months prior). We didn't perform the installation, we later found errors with your installation as outlined above, and something wasn't working properly when the car made its way back to us. I don't know what happened, and I'm not willing to make any assumptions. All I know for sure is that I sold you a transmission that was in perfect working order and we didn't perform the work.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Since when are IN THE CAR shifter bushings part of a transmission install? Those are the only thing that your shop replaced. It had nothing to do with any under the hood bushings or any linkage. The previous transmission never had an issue with any bushings, and the transmission after the one you sold me worked just fine also.

How are you sure that the transmission was in perfect working order anyways? Did you take it apart and inspect the internals? Did you put the car on jackstands and run the car through first gear to make sure all four wheels spun and not just the fronts? It was advertised to me as having a welded center diff, so as far as I know, that means all four wheels should turn when on jack stands correct?

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I never said anything about the shift bushings having to do with the issue, I was merely pointing out errors with the install that we found upon inspection. As I outlined before the car was driven for many months before it was torn down, that includes snow, rain, etc. This isn't just a random transmission we picked up as I outlined above, which I why I am so adamant that the AWD system was in proper working order when we took the car apart.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

Ok, so what exactly were these "installation errors" anyways? I have done a few transmission swaps now, and we did nothing different than what we did with this one. And yes, we did install the rear bolt that most people leave out.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I believe it was missing dowel pins, and then whatever transpired with the shifter bushings. It was over a year ago now so its hard for me to remember specifics.

Re: Modern Automotive Performance
 

I was told that the transmission was not removed, how exactly could you tell if the dowel pins were there or not if the transmission was never removed?