ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

OK, heres the build up, I'm running a SCM61 on a 6bolt. Since I like to push things, and don't have to rely on this car for transportation I sometimes run upwards of 35psi of boost. The engine has ARP standard head studs with a MLS head gasket installed (by someone else, unknown how tight they torqued em). Guess my question is is there any proof that these are stronger/weaker than the OEM 6 bolt head bolts? Cause the car pushes coolant under power now. 3-5 pulls and it blew out 2 quarts of water out of the cooling system, causing it to run hot (surprise surprise).

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

OEM 6 bolt headbolts are actually stronger then standard ARP's. There is a big thread on dsmtalk about it. I'll see if I can find it..

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

L19's plus FelPro Permatorque FTW!

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

No frickin' way, I call BS on this one. After the headache I got last night looking a few things up on talk, I remembered why I haven't been on that board in years.

Headgaskets can still blow with ARP's, or any other stud for that matter. Too much detonation or bad surface prep is going to cause problems. In a lot of years and different engine combos, I've only run regular old ARP's and I've blown one headgasket. I've also reused them many times and reused the same MLS gasket when chaning the head with no problems.

If it were me, I'd pull the head, see what went wrong if anything, clean up the gasket and spray liberally with copper spray, clean and re-lube the ARP's and call it a day.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

It was something about the yeild point of which the ARP's will stretch and the stock headbolts had a higher yeild point. I'm having trouble trying to find the thread.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Please find it.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Found it! They start getting into more info on page 3, but I didnt read any farthur. Looks like more talk then actual facts. I read the thread when I was still a n00b so who knows..

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showth...trength&page=4

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Yeah, talk was all I saw looking for information on turbos the other night.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Steve, you might want to check some posts on that other board that you are a moderator of from 5-6+ years ago about this subject. It has been know for quite a while that normal ARPs aren't all that good. The Supra guys figured out that their stockers were better than the ARPs ages ago.

Just about every DSM with normal ARPs starts pushing coolant in the 475-500awhp range on my dyno. It's like clockwork, doesn't matter how conservative the tune is. Evos heads are a bit meater than DSM heads and are less prone to flexing, so they aren't as prone to it.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Hmm, I'll have to go back and look, I don't remember the topic offhand. BTW, I made 520awhp on your dyno without pushing, I must just be an awesome engine builder. :)

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Heh, or your lucky, or actually installed the ARP's right, seems like alot of guys think that 115 ft lbs of torque on the bolts is gonna help them, there is a point where the bolts start getting weaker again. Well, I tryed tightening the head down to a heavy 95 ft lbs before yanking it, and while I helped the smoking, it still pushed coolant bad, so I pulled the head off... looks like the front and back sides of cyl's 1 and 4 the coating that was on the gasket is gone, probably was leaking there?

So what do you guys think about a composite gasket? I'm not really sold on the MLS ones, seems like many have coolant pushing issues, probably cause everyone else is cheap like me and doesn't want to yank the block to have it machined. I'm aiming for a max of 500hp at DB. Whats the best composite gasket? OEM mitsubishi or a fel-pro 1153?

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

If you are stuck on getting a composite, I would vote Mitsu. If you want to do it once and never fuck with it again, A1/L19 and FelPro Permatorque is the only way to go.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Yeah, but you need to have a flat block and head with a MLS head gasket... which a Permatorque is.... like machined and lapped flat... or I will be back where I am now...

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

I started pushing coolant when I was making 490ish at DB. Went to L19's with the perma torque and haven't pushed a single drop of coolant. I didn't do anything to the head or block dthat was any different when I was pushing coolant with ARP's and a cometic. Layed a flat edge against the head and said fuck it and put it back together.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

This just shows how cheap some people are. If you cant afford to build a motor the right way then dont build it at all because in the end you will just complain about the HG blowing coolant or the head studs stretching again. Why go so far and then stop at the point of surfacing a head and block to use a HG that is known to work? A1's and permatorque FTW! Plus like C3L1CA said, you dont need to resurface the head and block for sure. Just check it with a strait edge like he did and it obviously worked for him. BTW nice car and awesome power C3L1CA!

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

That's pretty much all I ever did as well, sometimes the straightedge was a 2x4.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

That was a fun night!

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Lol I hope your kidding

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

It's Old Man Hill. He doesn't kid around. haha

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

That reminds me, if you get L19's put two of them in upside down! It's good luck:rollinglaugh:

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Never, okay maybe just this once. :)

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Like Brad and others said, The Permatorque seems to be a very forgiving HG as far as surface imperfections go.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

It had better for the money you pay for it...

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

I'm going to bolt on a fel-pro performance composite gasket and use the stock head bolts... we'll let this be a little science experiment. Yeah, I'd love to bolt on L19's with a permatorque but thats over $400... this test will cost me $40 and a day of my time. I'm not scared of having to pull the head again.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

L19's and a mitsu mls gasket with a good surface prep. Best comb I've ever had. All last year I beat the hell out of my car and had no problems with my head gasket over pushing coolant.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Good luck and thx for trying something different out.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Based on what other people are saying, ARP's cause the (any) HG to fail after 4xx horsepower.

And since I will always be a fan of the factory mitsu composite headgasket that has worked for 20+ years...Has anyone used L19's and a mitsu composite?

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Signed in on this experiment! I want to see what happens also!

I was thinking of trying to build a 11:1 compression using E-85 and was wondering what head gasket/bolts I should be using. If the Feeler pro and stock bolts work GREAT!

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Well, this turned into a cheap fel-pro with arp's cause I was too lazy to swap them. I will post up the results of this. If you don't hear anything, that means its not pusing coolant.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

The felpro and arp's have yet to leak any coolant. I ran upwards of 35psi friday evening running around downtown. had the vacuum line to the FPR blow off at WOT which lead to lean misfires, still holding strong. Now that the 61 is toast it will probably last quite a while.

Re: ARP standard vs. OEM 6 bolt
 

Well, That setup didn't last long... I guess its time to verify the surfaces are still flat, and step up to L19's, maybe ring the head for good measure.