1991 talon 500 hp project
 

I Thought it would be appropriate to start a build thread

I have a 1991 awd Talon bought it for $1000 with a blown engine body is 9/10 its almost perfect. I dident care much about the interior its about 7/10 some rips in the leather seats . no headliner
Attachment 9616
Attachment 9617
now on my 3rd engine going on 4th

The first one had a bad rod knock spun a rod bearing + it was a 7 bolt the guy before me must have put that in there. So i bought the 2nd engine was also a 7 bolt for $450 complete bought that to put in for just getting the car going got it in there got it running not even 2 days it exploded a piston and rod thru the oil pan and cracked my bellhousing my girlfriend was driving it to work in stillwater and im guessing the oil pump stopped working or i got detonation some how on stock boost witch was at 10psi on 14b with open down pipe .? but anyways that's still sitting in the garage with a hole in the block on both sides .[ATTACH]9618[ATTACH]9619



now i wised up and got a 6 bolt short block from grease monkey
i took it apart to inspect it and the rods had a little play seemed normal for an old engine ..? pulled the balance shafts out and put the plugs in there and called it good put my good head on there and arp head studs torqued everything down to 80 did the cams at 40 got the gates blue T-belt got everything ready to go and to be fired up primed it before i put the belt on and put the belt on and it started up ran nice still had the oil pressure problum about 20 at idle with 10w40 every one told me that was norm and it was like 50-60 at hiway speeds and under full boost it stayed at 60 !:angryfire:
so i knew it was a matter of time before it woluld start knocking .. so a month later i was out tuning it with dsmlink and i got like 5 deg knock at 18psi and my afr was 10:8 11:0 in 3rd wot i just couldent get it to stay stedy it wanted less fuel and i took some out and it liked it and then i added 2-3 degrees of timing in the 4-5k and did another pull and it started to knock
:KANE:thought dsm link had a stock tune for it self when i loaded that it ran like shit no power at all but when i was tuning i was verry conservitive i had 110 and 93 in the tank.. i only raised the timing like 2-3 deg and added and removed fuel 2-3 till it started to make power . so now i decided to take it to the masters of thease beasts db tuning and not destroy another engine .. :violin:

so here is the build



Jasons car quest to 500 awhp
1.aem 02 sensor 60.00 cooked myold 1
2.pistons+rods wiseco hd pistons and eagle rods $400-700
3.acl racing rod and main berings $100
4.machine work $140 D and D + head and block decked
5.methaol injection kit stage 2 $ 300
6.headgasket kit $ 70-100
7.big brake kit 2g calpers $150
8.injectors 1000-1600cc $300
9.afpr aem or some other brand $160
10.rewire fuel pump and run bigger lines $80
11.brian crower cams 272s $360
12.valve springs and steel valves $400
13.fmic kit at least 400 hp or 700cfm $250 cx racing or fantasy motar sports
14. bov and pipe $ 130-170 greddy or hks
15.tial waste gate $100-150
16.2g maf i have .need intake charge pipe
17.lph 255 have installed
18.dsmlink v.2.5 have installed
19.get head ceramic coated ?
20 fp evo3 16g have installed
21.megan 3in downpipe 3in to cherry bomb then in to a apexi n1 installed

suggestions on parts or better for the money would be appreciated
i haven't bought anything yet other than stated i do plan on running e85 or 110

if you would like to sell me some parts pm me im looking and pricing out things now :smile: so far im about 3000+ what i have to spend is about 1500
so there are some things that are going to have to wait ..

Here is some pictures of the destroyed 7 bolt some people have seen this some haven't enjoy thanks for looking

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

First of all, an Evo3 16g won't get you to 500hp unless you're maybe thinking crank hp, which it might be close but not really.

1.aem 02 sensor 60.00 cooked myold 1 - Huh?

2.pistons+rods wiseco hd pistons and eagle rods $400-700 - That's pretty hopeful of being that cheap-are you getting it at cost or something?

4.machine work $140 D and D + head and block decked - I swear isn't having a block bored out like $50/hole which = $200ish, and decking a head is like $40-50

5.methaol injection kit stage 2 $ 300 - meh
6.headgasket kit $ 70-100 - An OEM Mitsu should cost a little less than that. $60 if I remember correctly?

9.afpr aem or some other brand $160 - not really necessary

10.rewire fuel pump and run bigger lines $80 - bigger lines for $80? Unless you're using just rubber hose, I'm not sure how you're making them that cheap? - Also unecessary for an Evo316g

12.valve springs and steel valves $400 - not necessary unless you're gonna rev high and that turbo won't make power past what stock springs can rev to

19.get head ceramic coated ? - ceramic coat the head, huh?

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

I would agree that your prices seem a bit... light. Some of those parts can be had used for around there if you are willing to wait for extraordinary deals, however, I would not bank on it.

500 WHP on an Evo III turbo is a very taxing build. Turbo simply cannot keepup with airflow demands as the RPM increases, it's just physically too limited. Because of this you need to achive dangeriously high cylinder pressures by spiking the turbo to around 32 psi coupled with agressive timing (25* during the spike and max TQ area of the curve). This will get you in the neighborhood of 450 WHP. Obviously this can only be attempteded on high-octane fuel. The major drawback that prevents most people from doing this however, is it tends to kill your turbo quick fast.

I've been doing this with 14b's and 16g's for the past few years, and I get roughly 3 months from a used turbo before very bad things happen.

Good luck with your goals!

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Something larger in the turbo department is needed. You aren't gonna be able to squeeze 500hp out of a 16g. I don't even think anyone has gotten there with the hta68 (could be wrong). Wouldn't recommend any injectors smaller than 1200's, as I recently learned from shane, 1600's are kind of a pain to deal with, and was recommended to get FIC 1250's, 1350's, or 1450's. You're gonna be working that fuel pump pretty hard, after 450hp as well.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

for 500, i'd leave the motor alone. Don't bother. Stock is plenty fine. You will waste money on the HD shit unless you go with a real turbo, and try for much more. Meth injection...not needed. Run corn fuel, like the rest of us. rewire fuel pump?? for that turbo..no. Head? Also leave stock. Worry about a good headgasket and headstuds if anything.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

SCM61 would be a good bet for 500ish hp. Its very achievable.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

You should have just bought my car instead of this one. You will be spending more than what I am asking (if you include the car you bought) and the car will still probably be slower. I have a set of used aftermarket rods and pistons if you are looking for a deal. I also just added a turbo capable of the power to the classifiedes. If interested, PM me.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Curt Brown did it back in 2008 with a high compression 2.0 and C16 (AWD to boot). However, I cannot stress enough how hard this is on an engine (I.E. not applicable to OP)

Here's a dyno of said engine:

http://www.beyondmechanics.com/highcomp16g.jpg

That being said, I would recommend shooting for 350/350 AWHP/AWTQ on a stock motor E3 combo and and grow into a more advanced setup from there. You are going to need the money for the necessary maintenance as these cars now quite old and have had a hard life.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

You should note that Curt brown can probably make 500whp out of a VW K03. His results are never typical, but always very legit.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Jasons car quest to 500 awhp --- Which Dyno?

5.methaol injection kit stage 2 $ 300 ---Stage 2? Which brand? Thats pretty cheap unless its a used kit. Go with E-85, you will be much happier.

10.rewire fuel pump and run bigger lines $80 --- bigger lines aren't going to be neccesary

11.brian crower cams 272s $360 ---look for HKS's you will be MUCH happier

12.valve springs and steel valves $400 ---you can get FP beehives for cheaper than that.

17.lph 255 have installed ---Make sure its the HP version

20 fp evo3 16g have installed ---good luck getting to 500 with that unless you're the next Curt Brown




Also, you HAVE to clean up the grammar in this thread if you expect much help man. This thing is seriously hard to read. Just trying to help ya out. :D Good luck with everything!

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

+1, I just picked one up myself. My goals are similar to yours, but simpler. I won't be using meth injection, just e-fuel and a good tune.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

If u look into my build that is what will give you your goal

Not that everything in my build is nessasary.. my tune was on major boost leaks and I'm going to get a retune this spring and shooting for 500 awhp

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

forgot to say is that i did get a s60 turbonetics turbo for free but its blown and im looking to get it rebuilt by some one the fins look ok there not bent just a lot of play and needs oil seals .. will post pictures

i know the e316 is not enough it should get me to about 350awhp

but i plan on using that until i can get this t-60 rebuilt

the meth kit i was looking at map sno perf kit and the prices i put up are what im guessing to pay basically doing my buying in stages so first thing was first to get the engine running good and correctly then later down the line buy some other things i only have 1500 to spend on the engine and i want it to take some stress . ill give map a call see what they can do for a piston and rods for me ...

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

1500 is not enough to do a motor correctly in my eyes.

There are some things you have to think about while setting your goals.
You will not make over 450 at DB without addressing the single fuel pump.
When you start making that much power, you have to decide what clutch setup you're going to run.
I doubt you transmission will take a lot of abuse making 500 @ DB for very long. Ask and I'm sure more than one person on here will verify that one for you.
List can keep going on and on.

I'd try and keep it to a stock rebuild, keep 16g, put some corn in it, and get it tuned by Shane. That way if anything breaks you might still have money left over from not putting it all in the motor to fix things.

Just my long .02. Good luck with the build!

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

The title of this thread put a smile on my face and the OP, 7 bolts = fail and 6 bolt ftw, I don't think its quite as simple.

A lot of good people have given some good advice, being someone who can barely break 400whp I would listen to these folks.

Definitely think about a trans and your driving style and note that Curt Brown's results while 100% legit, not something everyone achieve, hell I don't think anyone else is. (I heard something about magic dust or some shit)

Good luck with build, but take your time and mod the car slow, too many people seem to be on the quest for power and miss the whole adventure of modding and shit.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

You can't compare a high compression Curt Brown car on a Dynojet using STD correction to anything around here on our low reading dyno. Curt Brown spends thousands of dollars on things like ceramic wheel bearings to get every last HP out of his cars.

If you want to make the best power with a little turbo like that, I would highly recommend a 2G head with a 1G TB and sheet metal intake manifold. Bumping the compression up higher than your normal builds too would help on an E85 small turbo car also. You might want a better FMIC and better cams too.

Do E85 over 110. 110 isn't not nearly as good as E85. E85 is closer to C16 in knock resistance, and E85 has it's own cooling factor which usually gives helps it make more power than most normal race gases. Exotic race gases like VP import that are oxygenated add some HP and are extremely high octane, but most people don't want to spend $25 a gallon.

A 350awhp/350+awtq car on our dyno is a lot of fun though. You can run some fast times in a car with less HP but a quick spooling turbo. It can take 50-100HP more with some big laggy turbo to run the same ETs as some 16G car that has no lag.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Very true. 95tsi on here made 347hp 361tq with an E316G and E85 on a stroker and ran 11.75 on a shitty prepped track on a full weight 2g.

I've seen plenty of SCM61 & 35R cars that are partially gutted to some extent run worse times than that.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Obviously. I was just playing the devil's advocate because there were some absolute statements bouncing around. I think by 2010 most people realize (at least on this board) that even though a loaded dyno had a lower grading metric, you will achieve a much better tune vs free-spinning a roller to LOLWTFOMG speed.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Based on the Curt Brown dyno graph he was not at MBT for some reason, there was a little more in that tune, but I doubt that would equal more peak HP, but more torque for sure.

~John

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

I dont know if I would call it fast times, depends what you compare it to. But, the 16g on my car spools like none other and I trapped a 119mph on the 11.75 run. I'd say keep the 16G and enjoy it. Unless, you want to change out everything on the car, then the sky is the limit! If I had to, I'd run a stock 6bolt and a 16g on corn. Have Shane tune it and you will be happy. Save the money on building the motor and spend it on tranny work. ;)

On my 2.3 I'm getting it up to 28-29lbs of boost at 3700rpm and it drops to 22lbs at 6k. Power wise(dyno dynamics) I'm getting 347awhp and 361tq. And the TQ is coming on under 4k and dropping off after 5k, the HP is above 340 from 5k-5800rpm.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

You BETTER make over 500 on THAT dyno....

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

I don't think there's anything that magical about Curt Browns 499hp 16G setup. He had basically EVERYTHING for supporting mods, and I think he was running like 12.5:1 compression or something crazy. I still think it was kind of odd having peak torque up at 5-5500, and much lower than the hp. My torque was about 120 higher at 4 grand.

It can be hard to compare one dyno to the next. Plus my dynochart from MAP shows SAE correction, not STD. I've done some quick checking and everything was basically showing a 2.6% advantage using STD over SAE. Now I also saw someone who got a 4.9% difference between the two.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

I am thinking that the cams have a very late IVC which lowers the overall dynamic compression of his pistons, thus resulting in more airflow at the cost of spool and MBT. I was going to say, didn't Jrohner make around 430 AWTQ (on the omgjet) with his 16g setup?

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

here is the turbo im getting of my buddy's 420a

Attachment 9621

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Well If I do it will be at a dyno day because I will be going to shane for my new tune.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Ahhhhh... You know that turbo won't bolt up to your car right??? Get a turbo meant for a turbo dsm.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Nice color 1G.

One thing I wanted to mention was not to waste your money on upgraded fuel lines. Stock 1G lines go a long way. An upgraded feed-line may be appropriate, but other than that, unneccessary.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

how will it not Fit ?

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

It looks like that turbo is welded to the manifold, and a turbo setup for a 420A won't bolt on to a 4g63 unless it's a t3 turbo, and you'll need a t3 manifold for a 4g63 to even get that to bolt on.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

if i was going to run it. id do a t3 flanged manifold top or bodom mount

but its for sure a T3/T04E turbonetics Compressor Housing - 60-1 Compressor Wheel - F1-62 Turbine Wheel - Standard Housing - .63 A/R fully clockable the whole thing comes apart easy 5 bolts to take off on exhaust side from the center section and 4 for the compressor side off the center section and another 6 on the compressor side around it

best part it was free ill post pictures

like i said earlier im my post going to max out the e16 first then try to run this or fix it and sell it

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

if your looking to get rid of that 16g im in need of one for my project. lmk

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

It's great that you guys can buy new parts for so cheap. My X mani was nearly 4x the price.

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Well you're buying good quality stuff. Megan racing stuff, I would not expect a manifold like that to last...maybe it will, I'll eat my words...their o2 housings for the evo8/9 have proven very reliable...but idk, plenty of those cheap manifolds crack pretty quick! I'm sure they'll have a manifold for the X for about $200 pretty soon too, but I doublt it'll stack up to your FR manifold ;)

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

The one car that the Ebay/Megan racing manifolds don't seem to work on is DSMs. They work great on supras, hondas, 240s, etc though!

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

if you want to get rid of that 16g pm me im in need of one. if its a real one

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

In case he didn't see your post 5 posts above?

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

i dont think he did lol..since he replied after my post but didnt give me an answer

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

Just PM him. He can't miss that :)

Re: 1991 talon 500 hp project
 

here are the pictures of the turbo i got


Attachment 9644

Attachment 9645

Attachment 9646

Attachment 9647