New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

This is regarding my 4G61 turbo Colt. Stock turbo, enough fuel mods for E85. On to the problem:

I just went from a 1G MAS and 450's on gasoline to a HKS VPC/GCC with 550cc injectors on E85. I feel as if I'm running ridiculously rich though, and have been leaning it out a little at a time. I'm just afraid I'll go too lean.

To start I went +30% across the board. Now I'm maybe at like +25%? Thing is though, I used to hit 70% duty cycle with the 450's on gasoline, in a 1st or 2nd gear pull on a cold night. Now I'm hitting 90-100 duty cycle on the 550's in any gear. So that's like a 40% jump in duty cycle PLUS 20% larger injectors. Am I doing my math right here? The VPC has a 550 chip so it should "zero" with the injectors.
I'm also getting a shit-ton of knock until the car reaches operating temp. Is this rich knock? Is it common with E85?

Is it safe to just lean it out until I see knock then add like +2% across the board? I'm only running 20psi (fading to 16psi at redline) so I'm afraid it's going to be really lean before I see any knock.

I'm getting no knock now, and it pulls strong at WOT. Just stumbles once in a while during cruise and I'm seeing crazy duty cycles at WOT and sometimes while cruising (like 40% under mild acceleration). Also the top end feels a little doggy. Boost from the 11b falls off pretty quick, but duty cycles seem to keep climbing to redline.

As for a real dyno tune, I'm going to tweak it a bit at MAP's dyno day, then slap the 16G on there and get a real tune a week or two later. I just want to drive and enjoy it until then.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

The car must be extremely rich if you are hitting those IDC's, or you have a limitation in your fuel system somewhere. You have a walbro pump in the tank I assume? I'm not aware of any weird fuel line issues but sometimes after switching to E85 the fuel filter can become clogged. The best thing I can recommend is a wideband, the next would be to just watch your o2 feedback/fuel trims and see how far off it is...you're logging this thing, right?

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I have a logger, but I'm only logging RPM, knock, and duty cycle, as those are the only values that mean anything to me. I have a walbro 255hp and a AFPR set to 43psi. This is my first half a tank on E85 so I don't see having fuel filter issues already.
I hear you on the wideband but it's not going to happen just yet. I just want to get it running within 5% of where it needs to be by dyno day.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

As far as the IDC going up with rpm, I looked at mine in a graph, and they do the same thing, with a little bump where the turbo spools up.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Well then the o2 feedback and fuel trims are your friend then, log them at cruise and see how they look.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

My talon always did that too, I always thought it was due to the lifters.

No that's not safe at all. You can't tune E85 (fuel or timing) with knock, well you "can" but you'll tear stuff up or at least end up running way off from where you should be with no indication of it.

On E85 I never really register knock on my 2G no matter what I do with the fuel or timing. The 2 1G's I've changed to E85 would show knock once in a while, but neither had a wideband, and 1 of them had some issue as it was about impossible to not show knock like crazy when it was on gas (I could pull 10` timing and it would still show knock). 1G's have an overly sensitive and finicky knock sensing system IMO.


Take your injectors size and divide it by 1.4; to tune, pretend that number is your real injector size. If you have a chip for 550's, 750's are what would be ideal for tuning E85 on it. A chip actually designed (for gas) for the injectors you're running is actually more of a burden than a help for E85.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

^it's actually 2g's that have a more sensative knock sensor, not 1g's. Hence why most on a EMS run a 2g sensor on their 1g's, like me. I will be swapping to a new 1g though, for further dyno testing with Shane though next spring.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

OK scheides, will do. Although the O2 is dead, and it's going to have to stay that way for a couple weeks until I change the turbo.

jrohner - It's not lifter tick in my car, before the switch I had no knock ever (unless I ran shitty gas).
I do have 780cc injectors ready to go in, I just need the rubber donuts so I can install them.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I bought an injector o-ring for a caddy DTS I think, it was exactly the right one. Really cheap.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

It's 1G's that have most of the phantom knock issues. The 2G knock sensor is better.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Is it strange that my injector duty cycle is between 9-14% both at idle and cruising at 65mph?
That seems like way too much fuel at idle, which is odd because I leaned it way out on the VPC.

Also the fuel trims are all stuck at 100% because the O2 sensor is dead. I'm considering either a wideband to tune this thing or just running gasoline for the winter since I'm guessing my chances of the car starting in -5 degree weather is about zero.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

LOL that's definitely a big problem! w/o that o2 feedback (or a wideband) its tough to know what's happening.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Widebands are pretty reasonably price now days, so just get one!

If things are right your car should start fine. Mine started no problem even at temps around -15 last winter.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Alright, so who can point me at a decent and reasonably priced wideband setup that replaces the stock O2 sensor?

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I really like my PLX devices wideband. It's got a narrow band output as well, comes with a gauge that looks like AEM's gauge controller, which I've heard is also good. Probably all around 200 bucks.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I just installed an Innovate LC-1 with the XD-16 gauge and I really like it. It has an analog output so that you can log it with a datalogger, or there's a way to wire it into the ECU so that it can replace the stock narrowband sensor completely. It is a little more expensive than the AEM or PLX though. The kit I have usually goes for around $330

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

An LC-1 with the regular gauge is only around 200 bucks, that's what I'd go with for sure.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I've got a plx as well and it works wonderfully. I'd definitely recommend it

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Umm, what exactly is the "regular gauge"?

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

The black one with blue (or red) light that says innovate on it.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Haha can you be a little more specific? All their gauges say Innovate on them, and the gauge I have has the red/blue sweeping lights.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Just go to either innovates site or MAPerformance and you'll see it, oh lazy one.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Hey, he's been around three years longer than you, he deserves to be lazy. ;)

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I 2nd, 3rd, the wideband as well. You'll be able to know what's going on. I believe PLX makes widebands that simulate the o2 signal. I have an AEM and it does not simulate an o2 signal.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Alright, so here are my parameters for a wideband, it has to:

1. simulate the factory narrowband O2
2. have a standard size gauge (not a box like the PLX)
3. go in the factory location/bung
4. have a digital readout
5. cheap and easy to install are big pluses.

I'm browsing them, but it's hard to tell which ones meet my requirements.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

If you're talking about the gauge I assume you're talking about (since you apparently can't provide a part number), it's the same gauge I have, the XD-16. The only price I've been able to find for that kit is $320 The only kit they have listed for the ~200 you claim, is the LC-1 controller and sensor only, no gauge. The cheapest kit Innovate has with a gauge is either the DB kit (digital only readout) at $230 on Innovate's web site, or the G2 or G3 kit (analog only read out), at $250 according to MAP's website.

Now, back on topic. Installation was very easy with only 3 wires to hook up for the controller (one power, two ground) and one power and one ground for the gauge. I chose to wire up the power for the gauge and the controller together, so there was a total of 3 connections I had to make in the car. Everything else in the kit was plug and play.

I could have put the sensor in the stock location, but I can't get into DSMlink (no laptop) to get the ECU to read the wideband output, and I wasn't sure how to wire it into the ECU. Another thing with putting them in the stock location, is that the sensor has the potential of burning out faster than if it were farther down in the stream, but that's also a debatable issue.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Hrm, I had the PLX M-300 on my 2G with a gauge option, it worked fantastic....only problem is I do not see it on their site anymore...

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

How about this?

http://www.maperformance.com/innovat...-w-sensor.html

I have the LC-1 on my evo, works great. Some people have problems with the sensors going out, but I have had good luck with mine. I bet if you asked nicely you could get it for a great deal from MAP or one of our other vendors.

Oh, and it does have narrowband emulation setup as well...you can even program it to be whatever AFR you want ;) Default is 14.7 of course.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

http://www.maperformance.com/plx-dev...5-display.html

this is the plx I have and it meets all your criteria

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

The LC-1 uses the same Bosch sensor as most other widebands, so if it ever does burn out it's an easy replacement.

Also, it seems the DB kit is cheaper on the Innovate website.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

i've got the plx dm 5 as well (pretty sure on the part number), and you saw the gauge in it. There's a little controller box you can hide. You have to wire switched power and ground, and if you want the latched narrowband output, you have to plug that wire in yourself, but it's easy. And the gauge is normal 52mm and very thin, probably less than a centimeter.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I don't like the PLX units that much. They read wrong on a lot of cars. The cheap Bosch sensors that most of these systems use nowdays are a failure prone part (As are most Bosch electronics, just look at most german cars). So they fail and the AEM UEGO, Innovate, and NGK AFX boxes throw up an error or stop giving a reading, however, the PLX boxes instead keep "working" but it's a wrong reading. I would rather have it a "Sensor Error" on my screen than a 11.0 A/F reading when it's really 12.0.

I like to use the NTK sensors instead, they cost a bit more though, but they do last a lot longer, especially if you ever run race gas.

Narrowband emulation doesn't always work perfectly, depending on the wideband and the ECU it's used on. If you have a wideband and no real stock O2, you might just want to run in open loop all the time and tune for gas mileage.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Not the spendy xd-16. It's one that hooks up to one of the analog outputs. It's currently 247.99 at MAP. I know I've seen it for like $199 on ebay a while back and MAP told someone on tuners that they'd price match it. My cousin bought it a while back for $220, I believe from Innovate. I think you saw it, but since you want spoon-feeding, the part #'s from MAP are INO-3795 and INO-3796, and just 3795 & 3796 at Innovate. Do you need a link or do you know how to type innovate lc-1 in a search? To me $220 is 'about 200', but it can be found for 'under 200' (which is still 'about 200') with 12 seconds of looking.

It's currently only $196 obo on ebay.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I'm now running open loop, but back when I was leaning out the closed loop with my wideband, I got it to work pretty good but it definitely took some dinging around with the output settings to get it right. The new firmware sucks on the LC-1, it makes the AFR jump everywhere and makes closed loop about impossible to even use. Even in openloop the AFR it shows flies all over the place. My cousins that came with the newer firmware is that way, and mine was when I upgraded the firmware; I've since downgraded mine and it works great again.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I never knew that about the plx units I might have to think of switching to a different one

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Ok, that's what I was referring to as the DB kit, but your initial description was more than a little vague. I don't normally look on ebay when I buy parts, so I didn't check there. And honestly, it didn't really matter enough to me to spend a bunch of time searching around for the bargain basement price.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

I bought the Innovate DB and decided to run it separate from the factory O2. I'll be using the Bosch sensor and upgrade if it burns out. It's not going in the O2 housing and I'm not running race gas so we'll see how long it lasts.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

So, the wideband is in. Can someone help me out with what I want to see at idle/cruise/boost?
I'm idling at about 10:1, cruising at 12.5:1, and at WOT it's about 13.0:1 falling to 12.0:1. The car is also a bitch to start.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

At normal operating temps, my car usually sways back and forth between 14.0 and 15.0 at idle and cruise, and stays right around 11.5 to 11.0 at WOT. When I start it up cold idle and cruise is usually between 12.0 and 12.5 until it warms up and switches to closed loop. Sounds like you're way too rich at idle and cruising, and a little lean at WOT. The rich idle could be part of the problem with the car starting hard.

Re: New to E85. Getting a baseline...
 

Yep, on my car, idle is 12.5-13 or thereabouts, it idles fine. Warm up is obviously richer. WOT is 11.5, cruise is 14.5-15.5.

Get it to that point and disable the wastegate.