Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

I'm going to be building a 6 bolt engine for my 95 Tsi AWD but I don't know what to look for in pistons and rods. I have looked a little bit into pistons and rods from SBR and I found a set of pistons by the brand name of Mahle. I also thought that H-beam con rods were stronger than I-beam con rods, but over there they make that sound incorect.

Has anyone used Mahle pistons, and what are the better $300-$500 set of rods?

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

http://www.dsmstyle.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67

check out LSE. They could probably help you out.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Really though, If you aren't going for over 400 whp or so, you'd be better off to use OEM parts and just run the stock block.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

What are you're goals?

If under 400hp, go with 1g rods and 2g pistons.

If over 400hp, I'd go with Eagle rods, Ross/Wiseco pistons, Clevite bearings, and ARP hardware.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

eagle rods suck balls. Crower for the win!

-Colin

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Yea, Eagle rods can only hold 900 or so whp.

snea, don't put all your faith into what you read on SBRs page. They sell a massive amount of parts, but they aren't exactly into real world testing like Buschur, AMS, RRE, etc. They focus more on finding more stuff they can sell.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

really? maybe you should tell Shane and AMS that, i'm sure they'd appreciate the update.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

the thing is, is that I'm not sure how much power I want to end up with. I want to run around 300-350 daily, but want to end up higher than that. I don't want to have to build my short block twice. I want to have a near bullet proof rotating assembly, without spending bocu bucks.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

If you ask anybody that has done build ups that support the horse power that they want to make at the time. Then later they always want to make more and end up re-doing shit to fit their needs. I am sure the concensus will be to do it one time and be done with it, then you can bolt on parts and go with it.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Eagle/Wiseco for you.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Well I was thinking I would go with eagle rods, but has anyone heard of pistons made by mahle?

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

I've used Mahle's, but I perfer Weisco's. They are very available, and are of good quality.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

What didn't you likeabout the Mahle piston. The reason I'm looking into them is because they are so light, but then again, are they so light that reliability will be compromised?

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Mahle is a very good brand. Their pistons are great, their service is not. If you found a place that has what you need on a shelf or can get it to you in a timely fashion, bang a gong, get it on.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Hahaha, allright. Thanks Grey Wulf.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Yes, Mahle also makes a great piston.

They are hard anodized and then the sideskirts are teflon coated. They are also very light. They come standard with "heavy duty" wrist pins, which does make them slightly heavier, but not heavier then wiseco's. The skirt's on them is pretty much non existant, but tolerances are tighter then most pistons, so who knows if we will have issues with that.

I say if you have to ask what combo to go with, just get the tried and true 800whp method and do eagle/wiseco.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Well, I'm not one to follow blindly. I know wiseco has great products, but like I said before, I only want to build this short block once, and I want it to be built RIGHT! I think, from what I've read and been told, I'm going to go with the Mahle pistons and Eagle con rods.

Thanks everyone.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

I would be careful with the Mahle, I don't know of anyone using them in a DSM personally. I know Shane put down nearly 700whp with them and there are several of us in MN with over 500 whp with them in. For a street car short side skirts are bad. They don't offer as much support and will scrape the cylinder walls more. For a race car that is an easy way to lighten the piston and make more power though.

Wiseco's also have a higher silicon content than a lot of pistons. This gives them a expansion rate close to the cast iron in the block. The key to that is that the hole doesn't have to be extra big when cold, so you get less piston slap on startup from a cold engine. I would definately go Wiseco. If you think saving 10 grams on a piston is significant for a street car, you need to do some more research.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

*DING*

Honestly,the Weisco's are all around a better piston when you "add it all up" when concerning a street car.
1) More available
2) More support
3) Usually cheaper
4) Great piston design for a street/strip car, the weight savings are probably not worth it. I guarantee I can find something else in your setup that will rob your of more power compared to the few gram weight savings.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

just to clarify, in jets first paragraph he is NOT saying shane and him use Mahle pistons; they use wisecos.

you probably got the idea from the 2nd paragraph, but i thought the first was oddly worded and that i'd just point that out :)

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

JET, on the issue of cylinder scuffing and higher silicon. Mahle piston's spec sheet says that .002-.003 is the recommended clearance. I believe the Wiseco's have a .0025-.003 recommended clearance. In all actuality, Mahle could possibly be a better choice.

1. They are hard anodized. This makes them superior in many ways over a non anodized piston. FYI they ring lands on the C6 Zo6 are hard anodized, and they have handled over 850whp so far. The Zo6 pistons are cast.

2. They also coat the "side skirts" with teflon. The Mahle pistons have more of a 3/4 skirt around them, where as wiseco's only have a half skirt. This may or may not make up for the lack of length on the skirt.

3. They come with a full wrist pin stock. While this add's weight, it also makes the assembly stronger. I believe this is like a $40 dollar upgrade for Wiseco's.

Now don't get me wrong, Wiseco makes awesome pistons, but there are some things about them not to like. Just because one piston is tried and true doesn't mean there isn't a better piston out there for a comparable price.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

You need to read more of what we are saying. The Mahle piston "may" be marginally better than the Wiseco, but it may also be much worse. Is it worth the risk to find out? If you are going for 800whp, then it may be worth it. For a mild street car, it is definately not worth it.

Wiseco pistons are also coated and come with floating wrist pins stock.

You also need to look at the Mahle pistons more if you think they have a 3/4 skirt and the Wiseco has a 1/2 skirt. That is ridiculous. The skirt on the Mahle is much smaller than the Wiseco.

Dumb Ricer, since you are not as well known, what is your background? Have you built engines or are you just doing research on the net?

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Yes, I have built engines, and I have done extensive research on piston design and theory.

I was not referring to the length of the skirt. Yes, the Mahle skirt length is damn near non existant. But, the Mahle piston skirt wraps all the way around to almost the wrist pin. Whether this helps or not is up in the air.

With tighter tolerances, in theory a longer skirt is not needed. I do agree with you that on a daily driven street car a longer skirt is PROBABLY going to help decrease piston scuffing and help engine life slightly. I am not going to say that 100% yes it does help, because this has yet to be proven. My buddy has a set sitting in his garage right now, and his motor will be built in about a month, so we will see how the Mahles do.

Where most of you "older" guys who have been into DSM's for a long time have formed hard opinions on what works and what doesn't, I am new to the game, and it's not just DSM's I am in to. I haven't had time to form the hardened opinions that seems to come out as fact from you guys. Yes, Wiseco makes a great piston, Yes, I recommended Wiseco to the original poster because I do not know how well the Mahle's will work. No, I am not going to say that Wiseco makes a better piston than Mahle because there is no proof of this. Theory says that the Mahle may be better. Wiseco is proven, I know that, but we can't come out and say Mahle isn't worth looking at.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

For the second time noone has said the Mahle's may not be better than the Wiseco's. The Mahle's are relatively unknown for a DSM though. So where is the supposed benefits of the Mahle? It is anodized, big deal there isnt a problem with the Wiseco's piston tops and they hold up to high HP.

Mahle seems to be moving towards some of the motorcycle pistons technology. That is really the leading edge, but even they say that the lack of piston skirt does shorten the life of the piston. For an engine that rev's over 13k the piston weigt really starts to become huge. The piston speeds the bikes are running were unheard of just 5 years ago. They are near F1 car territory (the Yamaha R6 runs to a true 16k RPM).

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

Ok, question, would it be better to use 2g aftermarket rods and pistons to get a slightly larger pin size?

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

No.

Re: Questions on whitch rods and pistons to use.
 

ok