MitsuStyle - 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

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Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

found this:

Hyundai Genesis 2.0L Turbo & Differences
There seems to be a lot of buzz starting regarding the coming Hyundai Genesis coupe. Hopefully it will be a solid foundation that people can easily modify and beat the crap out of without breaking too easily. Anyhow, last week I was working on the 32 over at XS and Gary from Design Craft stopped by in a blue decked out Genesis 2.0L turbo. He already had it decked out with wheels, Stoptech brakes front and rear, custom Apexi coilovers, Turbonetics turbo, intercooler, Sparco seats, Design Craft custom roll cage, etc. It turns out its a 0-60 Magazine project car so look out for a future issue of 0-60 for details on the car (bitchin mag btw).

I have read here and there where people are claiming that the Mitsubishi and Hyundai versions of the 4B engines are nearly the same. So to clarify, here are some factual things I’ve learned from talking to Gary at Design Craft (who would probably be the leading Hyundai 4B11T expert at this point in time), Simon at Hyundai (who is a Hyundai test engineer and probably knows the most about the Genesis Coupe at this point in time), and Mo at Mitsubishi (who just knows a lot about both versions of the 4B11T and a certified car nut himself) about the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and it’s engines:

1. The Hyundai 4B11T is not the same as the Mitsubishi EVO X 4B11T. While the Hyundai 4B is similar in many ways, there are very few common parts. The block, head, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all similar, but different. Different in that they are lower grade. Hyundai’s rods are powder sintered whereas Mitsubishi’s are forged. Mitsubishi’s pistons are made by Mahle and have a oil reservoir underneath the dish like a Porsche turbo piston. Hyundai’s cast piston is no different in strength compared to one of their passenger cars. Hyundai’s 4B block has far less webbing (this is visible from the exterior). The differences go on and on. That doesn’t mean the Hyundai parts suck. It’s just that the Mitsubishi 4B11T is way better out of the box. While the parts are different, that doesn’t mean that the Mitsubishi pistons, rods, and crank cannot fit into a Hyundai 4B.

2. The cylinder head is different enough that the exhaust manifold and intake manifold flanges and gaskets are not common. They are absolutely different so there will be no manifold and turbo swapping. This is an absolute fact since Gary tried fitting the manifolds from an EVO X. The Mitsu engine is mounted transverse and it is very likely that the castings wouldn’t work anyway. That’s too bad since the Cosworth EVO X 4B11T CNC ported big valve cylinder head will be available to the public soon. See #6 below on the cams.

3. The LSD in the sports version is a gear type LSD and not a clutch type.

4. There is an orifice in the clutch’s hydraulic plumbing that needs to be removed for performance purposes (as do many other cars).

5. The Hyundai V-6 is very similar in design to the Nissan VQ35. If you’re going to make a new V6, you’d be a fool not to copy, oh sorry uh….model your new engine after the VQ35 since it is the best damn V6 in production right now.

6. While the cams are SIMILAR in appearance, they may not be identical like the GenesisDriven blog states. The blog post states that their Korean source says, “With your pictures send to Korea, our engineer and tech dept. have confirmed its identical as 2.0 turbo Theta for those cams.” I’m not sure what kind of engineer looks at a picture on a computer screen, makes a foolish assumption, and says, “Yep, those are identical.” I don’t think I want that engineer designing my parts. Regardless, the Hyundai and Mitsu 4B11T camshafts need to be precisely measured before saying that they are “identical”. I sure hope they’re the same because Cosworth already offers the best damn EVO X cams that money can buy.

7. (added 3/13/09) The ECU is made by Siemens. I wonder who’s going to get in on the reflash crap first? Or better yet, who’s going to make a proper standalone ECU?

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Thanks for that info Super Bleeder!

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Honestly, I think I'd rather have the v6 verson after reading that. From what I gather by reading that, the 4b11 in the hyundai is like a nt motor they threw a turbo on, and the 4b11 in the evo is a true turbo motor.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Let's also not forget that the bottom end is more similar to the engine in the Caliber SRT4 than it is to the EVO motor. There's a few Calibers running around making 375+whp on stock internals. I think the 2.0 will be a pretty stout motor, even though it may not be as good as it could have been.

And one more thing to think about, the v6 is about $3k more (for the same trim levels) than the 2.0t. Throw that $3k into the 2.0 and you will definitely be making more power than a stock v6.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Are these gonna be at the MN auto show?

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

They have been at every other auto show, so I don't see why not. I'm thinking about going there either tomorrow or Monday.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

^ dang i was just going to post this!

Looks like they made 187whp and around 220 wtq on 87 octane on their dyno

http://www.amsteam.net/files/1255_px..._032109_01.jpg

This is what Ivan from AMS (the owner of the car) had to say about it..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan@AMS (Post 6840609)

First night with the coupe... my impressions.

First off, I have to say that this car looks so much better in person than it does in pictures. You really do not get a good idea of the shape of a car in 2D. In pictures, it appears smaller than it actually is. This might have to do with the large wheel and tire throwing off the perspective. Pictures make it look the size of a Tib when in person, it appears to be more the size of a G35.

Fit and finish is very good. The interior and exterior both have a quality look and feel to them. The chrome "H" on the front and rear are distracting. I pulled them off and painted them with VHT Nite Shade spray on tint. The chrome still shines though and now looks like black chrome. On the front, this mod fits perfectly. On the rear, the "H" still stands out a bit much for my taste. The car has a very unique shape. Everywhere I drive, there are people taking second looks, pointing and taking pictures. I have heard several people say "what is that?" At the local car hangout, I was surrounded by people before I could even get out of the car and swamped with questions and comments all night. People really like the car.

The interior is very very nice. The seats are ultra comfortable. The dash layout is awesome and controls are easy to use. The stereo system is perfect for my taste. AM / FM / XM / 6 disk in dash CD / MP3 player / iPod cable / etc.... The sub hits hard enough to feel. Steering wheel controls are easy to use and work fine. I wish they had a mute button though. Bluetooth works perfectly and phone calls are clear and easy to make / receive. Wind noise management is awesome. Cruising with the sunroof open is ultra quiet. With the windows down, I could still talk on the hands free. Back seat head room is limited. Shorter people only back there.

The proximity entry is very cool. All you need is the key in your pocket. You walk up to the car and press a small button on the door handle and it unlocks and disarms the system. Pull the handle and the window drops down a 1/4" (BMWesque). Hop in and close the door and the window goes back up. Push the clutch in and push the start button once and it takes over from there. The engine fires right up and purrs. There is enough vibration at idle to shake the shifter but it does not transmit when your hand is on it. Clutch feels nice. It has a bit of pressure to it and feels like a heavier duty pressure plate. Engagement point is in a perfect spot and feels natural. I cant even tell you where that point is as it is placed perfectly and takes zero thought to drive. The shifter has positive engagements and is nice and notchy. Reverse is far left and up. It takes a bit of pressure to get it past the 1 / 2 gate. When engaged in revers, the car lets you know by sounding a long beep. I did find that a quick reverse and pull out into neutral then quick into first seemed to jump me back into reverse. It seems that the pressure required to get into the reverse gate is gone for a moment when you pull out of reverse. I will do some more exploring on this issue today. The throttle pedal has a good feel to it but does not exactly feel connected to the motor. My biggest gripe about this car is throttle control during and after shifts. There is a LOT of throttle hang (rpms stay up when throttle is released with clutch pushed in) which makes smooth shifting an issue. I hope that Hyundai gets this sorted out and has a reflash to correct this problem. Throttle response is good and low rpm power is great. Power falls off dramatically up top though. I do not like the torque curve. When the torque curve flattens out, this car will be a LOT of fun. I will be exploring spirited driving a bit more today and will post up my impressions a bit later.

So far, this car is shaping up to be pretty nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan@AMS (Post 6842290)

As stated above, we did get a chance to get the coupe on the dyno today. Still running 87 octane. It spools ultra fast and makes peak Tq around 2500 rpms if I remember correctly. Peak Tq numbers were in the mid 220s and peak HP in the upper 180s. Chris will be chiming in with his impressions, dyno charts and comparisons soon.

We did play around with a few things and made decent gains. Chris will post all the details.

93 octane dyno numbers coming soon.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Here's a little more info from AMS, And btw, the car is still running on 87 octane.

Quote:

UPDATES!!!!!!

Ok, so we did a little dyno testing on... Sunday. Yes, we are so excited about turbocharged cars that we were actually here on a sunday working on it! {thumbup}:lol:

Anyways, like Ivan said this car has an amazing fit and finish to it for its price point. It actually makes me want one. The stereo system is super cool, and I'm honestly a bit jealous! I'll get to what I'm good at though, hard facts!

First off, the car is on 87 octane! We are unsure of how this will effect the results but you can be sure that we will test that too! One thing we are definitely known for at AMS is our exhaustive testing procedures http://genesisforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif. Secondly, for those of you that are unfamiliar with dyno charts, I apologize at the complexity of these. Boost and air/fuel are at the bottom, and horsepower and toque is the top chart.

The air/fuel curve on all the charts has a rather weird bump in the mid-range and the car does not run overly rich up top like we are used to seeing with factory turbocharged cars. At this time it definitely does not seem that there is alot of horsepower to be made with fuel tuning alone.

I logged a couple pulls on the dyno with generic OBDII scanner and there is nothing fishy or special going on with these cars as far as I can tell at this point. The throttle stays all the way open until redline, it goes into a normal open loop fueling strategy at full throttle, and has normal 0-1 volt o2 sensors which are utilised during closed loop only. Without further adieu, here are the results!

This is the car in stock form on our dynojet at AMS.

http://genesisforums.org/images/stat.../wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 910x616.http://amsperformance.com/amsperform...s-StockSAE.jpg

The next thing we though to do was to remove the air filter and see if there was any restriction at the current boost level. Since there is no MAF, and the turbo isn't moving very much air at this point, it appears that there will be no horsepower gains from running a different filter or intake pipe at this point.

http://genesisforums.org/images/stat.../wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 911x615.http://amsperformance.com/amsperform...vsNoFilter.jpg

Of course the next logical step is to put a boost controller on it!!! Using just that, we gained a suprising 45whp in the midrange!!

http://genesisforums.org/images/stat.../wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 911x617.http://amsperformance.com/amsperform...StockvsMBC.jpg

Suprisingly it responded very well to the boost controller, and didn't even cut me off until about 18.5 psi. Once it hits the boost limiter though, you have to shut the car off and turn it back on or it opens the BOV and refuses to run any boost!!! The MBC definitely smoothed the boost curve out quite a bit, and it does seem like the power delivery would be more linear on the street. I can't wait to get into these ECUs and see what they will really do!

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Good god look at how foking lean it gets at 3500!

Insane that AMS got theirs before Buschur did.....this will be interesting.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Nice WOT A/F there Hyundia. :) Pulling the air intake off and not getting any gain doesn't absolutely mean that a good aftermarket one won't perform better overall though. Every turbo and all-motor car that I have pulled the intake off has done better with an aftermarket intake on it than none at all. Since it's a MAP based car though, you aren't going to see "gains" like you do with an Evo X with an intake, due to the intake changing the air meter instead of actually being a restriction.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Interesting info. It's too bad it doesn't have more in common (engine/internals wise) with the Evo. But still, the fact that it doesn't have the piston/rods of the evo, I don't take that as it all sucking.

DSM's didn't come from the factory with forged pistons, and 2g's didn't come with the best rods, but look how far people push the stock bottom ends on them. Can't wait to see how far some of these shops are able to push the stock bottom end!!

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon (Post 282487)

With Shane's tuning help, I'm sure we'll be pushing the stock block a good ways.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Don't you guys have the V6 though?

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon (Post 282497)

Don't you guys have the V6 though?

Nope, that one wasn't ours, the 2.0t hasn't shown up yet.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

Beyond Redline just broke 300whp on their Mustang dyno. They took the stock turbo off to inspect it, and destroyed all the hardware in the process (one time use stuff maybe?). So instead of waiting around to get new hardware, they bolted up a GT3076, and a Tial 38mm wastegate with a 16psi spring.

They used their prototype FMIC kit, prototype downpipe and cat elimination pipes, and an AEM FIC with 600cc injectors. Their prototype catback was off being made into a production model so they had to use the stock catback. Anyways, here's some pics and a dyno video.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j.../Gencooler.png
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...it/GenDyno.png
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...NENGINEBAY.png
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...alecorrect.png

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/3...Run_644732.htm

More info on it can be found here: http://www.gencoupe.com/general-disc...s-306-whp.html

On a later tune he cleaned up the AFR a little and hit 314hp. They tried turning the boost up to 17psi, and hit 331whp and 270lbft, but the AFR went all crazy, so he stopped. That torque curve is awesome! I can't wait till they can get into the ECU and can find a way to get around the boost cut.

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

AMS is also making decent gains from just boltons. They're up 44whp from their baseline 87 octane run. Nobody has cracked the ecu yet, so these are all on the factory tune. It seems like as soon as boost gets over 18psi it get boost cut and it goes into limp mode.

Quote:

Today we tested:

AMS prototype down pipe / mid pipe
AMS prototype secondary cat delete
AMS prototype cat back exhaust
AMS prototype intake silencer delete
AMS prototype front mount intercooler
AMS prototype intercooler piping kit
AMS manual boost controller

Alright, I am going to spill the beans on today's dyno pulls, but you will have to wait till Monday for actual dyno charts. Chris will be posting them up as soon as he has time to go through them.

Our baseline dyno numbers on 93 octane fuel are 192 WHP and 219 lbs Tq (SAE corrected) with the 100% bone stock car, stock boost control and no tuning at all.

Today with JUST BOLT ON AMS prototype parts, we put down 212 WHP and 220 lbs Tq (SAE corrected) still on stock boost control and no tuning at all.

Well, the 20 WHP gain is quite nice but only 1 more lb of TQ??? What the hell am I so excited about (you might be asking)??? Well let me tell you. These are just PEAK numbers. To fully appreciate the gains you must see the dyno charts. With the stock turbo, you make peak Tq very low in the RPM range due to the boost rapidly falling off after hitting its peak. The gains we were seeing with the bolt on parts are at a higher RPM range. The gains in HP and Tq start at 3500 rpms and HP gains are consistently 20 WHP from 4000 rpms to red line. The Tq curve has flattened out quite a bit. If boost did not drop so drastically, I am sure we would see a VE similar to the Evo X motor where the TQ just stays flat and HP keeps climbing.

After the disappointment in the cat back and secondary cat delete dyno testing, I was confident that there was still a cork (or three) in the system and obviously I addressed those today. The difference in today's dyno testing was the prototype AMS down pipe, prototype AMS intercooler and prototype AMS intercooler piping. One (or all three) of these items freed up the HP I just knew was there.

Now before you say "well, that was ONLY 20 WHP", let me explain something else. As I have mentioned before, I believe that the Gen Coupe was not showing gains because we are not leaning on the car that hard. In stock form, this car is only rated at 210 crank HP. This is only 2/3ds of the Evo X rated crank HP. I have always had the opinion that if we were starting with 300 HP, the gains from bolt on parts would be more. Well........... just to prove this, I TURNED THE BOOST UP with the AMS bolt on parts!!! Here is the proof.

With the 100% bone stock car and no tuning at all, we were able to run a peak of 18 psi dropping to 12 psi at red line (before hitting boost cut). We made 204 WHP and 249 Lbs Tq. (SAE Corrected)

With the AMS prototype bolt on parts and no tuning at all, we also were able to run the exact same peak of 18 psi dropping to 12 psi by red line. We made an incredible 236 WHP and 237 Lbs Tq. Again, peak Tq does not show the full picture as it happens well before the gains from the AMS bolt on parts.

That is 32 WHP gains from just the AMS bolt on parts at this boost level!!!! This proves that the stock components are choking the motor and the more you turn the boost up, the more the stock components are going to rob power. Now imagine the gains you would get from the bolt on parts at 300 WHP!!!

I hope you can all see why I am excited now. If not, the dyno charts Chris will post should explain everything.

P.S. Uncorrected (ACTUAL) numbers today were 241 WHP and 243 Lbs Tq!!!

Re: 4b11t going into new RWD Hyundai coupe

New dyno sheet from Beyond Redline. Also, the turbo they're using has a .82ar exhaust housing on it, so I don't think the power potential would be hindered by using a smaller housing for quite a while judging by how well it holds torque.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...4hpgenesis.png