Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I feel sick after reading that. I guess you found the limit for the stock rods. I was kind of wondering why you where using the stockers. On a Plus side 526 on pump gas is awsome.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

man that sucks! Sorry Swanny, I know how hard and how many late nights the whole crew put into that beast. I am sure you guys will get it up and running in due time, when it's all ready for the next step. Keep you head up, it's only a car.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

shit man.... that sucks alot! sorry to hear about that...

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I just have one question for you Swanny. Were you just trying to see how far you could push the stock rods? Because I can't think of anything other reason that you would leave them in considering the turbos you choose and the power you wanted to make. Just doesn't make sense.

Other than a bearing going I would have to assume it was detonating on pump gas on high boost. I know you said the A/F were good but you could have just been pushing the boost on that gas too much, or running too much timing.

Oh well I guess you will just have to diagnose it when you take it apart. Speculating is just that, speculation. Either way it sucks.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Of course he was checking the limits. I done heard it from the horse's mouth.

I just wish i could have gotten a ride first!! :)

good ruck!

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

16 degrees of timing advance on pump gas and 24-25lbs of boost is nowhere near "low timing" unless you are running a really low compression ratio (in the 7.5:1 range). Don't you guys think timing should have been set in the single digits when running that much boost on pump gas? I could see maybe 11-12 degress but 16 degrees just seems pretty aggressive to me for not using C16 at that boost level.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I've been running 15 degree's of timing with 26psi on 93oct for probably 8 months... at least 50 pass's down the 1/4 before switching to race gas. (only 4 runs then blew the tranny on a really bad wheel hop launch...lowered it 1000rpms due to really bad wheel spin didn't notice I was the 3rd car in line after they reprepped the track)

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Thats great. But would you consider that "low timing"? I would consider 15 degrees at 26psi pretty aggressive. If he is running low compression then it could be considered "low".

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Actually 15 is on the high side for me. I rarely get more then 16 at it's highest so ya 15 would be on the high side.

Anyrate hope you get things back together soon.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Before I left, before the injector O-ring thing:
Shrep thought he heard a miss-fire or some such on decel and idle. I didn't hear it, but it would mean that it's not your "power pull" that should be blamed. The pump tuning aside, that is nowhere near enough power to break things.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

sorry to heaR this guys, a lot of people were gunning for you all, and were definitely ready to see you run around the area this year. Good luck with the reconstruction and now just go for broke, you couldn't do highest with stock internals, maybe just highest in the US?
Either way good luck to you all and can't wait to see the new one.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

that blows goats! (not of the steve hill variety)

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

A few things to clear up.
We went with the stockers because we thought they would hold alot more power than they did. We did want to push the stockers to the limits, but we honestly figured the limits to be 750whp on our dyno. All signs point to no detonation, but inspection of the torn down motor will be done with results posted.
I don't consider 16psi "low" but I know many 3s people are running stupid amounts of timing with redicilously high intake temps, with lean air/fuel ratios, and are doing fine. My air fuels were in the 10's, the timing was 16 degrees, the knock sensor wasn't picking up anything (less than 1 volt) and the plugs were clean. Short of having a seat inside of the cylinder, watching the flame front, there was nothing else we could moniter. My motor ran cold (185 on the street, up to 207 on the dyno after 12 or so back to back pulls) and had great oil pressure.
The "missing" justin kept hearing is the fuel cut on decel. It is very loud on my car because of the 4" exhaust. I am having the injectors shut off on decel (just like any car) just makes a bunch of "paw paw paw" noises...kind of like the srt4's.
I guess we'll see what it looks like when it comes apart, but it really doesn't matter in the end. To me we have found what I consider the "limit" on that rod. I don't know the history on the rods in my motor (sourced them from many different motors) and we tried to treat the all the same.
All the rods have arp rod bolts, and brass bushing for the wrist pins. The rotating assembly has been perfectly balanced, and has been cryo treated.
The car will live again, with a forged crank and forged rods. I am done prototyping parts for people. If someone wants to know how much it'll hold, go figure it out on your own budget. The feedback I get from communities is great. It'll get a forged crank, pauter rods, 30+psi, and race gas next time it runs.
Then, hopefully, I'll be throwing up 700+awhp dyno graphs.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Pimpin'

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Sorry to hear that Josh! Makes me think my turbo problem is nothing, I got off lucky I guess! Cant wait to see the final project...

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I was hoping I would never have to read that post but I guess some things are too good to be true.

Get the forged components in and show us some fireworks. I look forward to seeing this thing out and about. It is too bad the glory didnt last a little longer.

Tim

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I think we found the limit on stock rods. With no signs of detonation and a solid A/F and intake temp there is not a hole lot more we could do. The motor will be torn down and inspected as said above. Detonation ither blows the headgasket or channels the head, or spins rod bearings which results in a lose of oil pressure and a hole lot of noise.

~John

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

How do you know 100% it wasn't knocking? Just from looking at the AEM? You can't soley go off that especially if you didn't put race gas in it and calibrate the noise tables in the AEM. Or did you put race gas in it and run low low timing and low low boost to make sure it was not knocking and then zero out the noise tables in the AEM? Or is the 3S totally different when it comes to monitoring knock? How is their knock sensors compared to a 2G DSM?

Running pump gas first thing is a big gamble in my opinion. Especially on a pretty radical car boosted like you were building. The pump gas numbers are awesome but I have a feeling it was detonating and killed the rod bearing in #3. The proof is in the pudding though when you pull it apart.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

We did look at and set the knock table when it was running 15psi with a very safe tune. The knock sensor is the same as a 2g. We do not think it was knocking due to the plugs not showing any signs of detonation, the knock noise table did pretty much the same thing the hole time it was on the dyno, the A/F were on the rich side to keep the motor cool, and the intake temps were around 100deg, not bad for a sidemount car on the dyno and the car pulled smooth and the power curve is smooth as well. As said befor, we wanted to test the limit of a stock rods, we did and now the rods will be upgraded.

~John

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Sorry to hear that guys. Nothing sucks more than putting your heart, soul and wallet into a big project, and to have a problem with it. Some of us have been there, it sucks.

-Speculation hat on-
I don't think it's a normal rod issue. I can't say for sure since I don't know 3S motors, but DSM rods have been proven to easily handle 125whp per hole with careful tuning. I can't imagine Mitsu went way cheaper on the rods in the 3s', so just by those numbers, 750whp shouldn't be out of the question for stock rods. Did you have the rods magnafluxed? I'm thinking there might have been an imperfection in that one rod. I guess only disassembly will tell.
-speculation hat off-

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

That is where we are at. We had the rods cryo'd, not magnafluxed. Since I don't want to deal with this mess again I am going forged.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Good luck, hopefully there's no cylinder wall damage.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Yeah hopefully you can just slap some rods and bearings in and call her good. Atleast then you can have piece of mind knowing that it will take pretty much anything you can throw at it.

On a side note. How long does it take to pull one of those motors and swapped out pistons and rods?

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Haha, its time to get it done. The next time I can schedule in customer work is around May 18th, pending the current workload. I have late night to work on the car (not until after the cookout probably) and weekends (again, not until May) to even start working on the car. I should beable to get the motor out of the car in 1-2 days, have it torn down, etc. Its way to early to set a "goal date" as I have to come up with the $$$ for it.
I'd love to see it running in June for the 3s gathering, but that is a far cry and a maybe at this point.
In a nutshell, it looks like I am fucked for this season.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Look on the good side. At least you were not fucked at Rock Falls.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I'm sorry but I'm not trying to bring you down but, thats just stupid to have put stock rod's back in. You wanted to make a lot of power yet you put in weak parts, that doesn't seem very intelligent. I mean, thats like putting a non turbo short block into a turbo dsm... it might have been just for fun, just to see when it would blow up. Sorry for your lose. good luck when you get it running again.

Kevin

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

It wasnt really all that stupid. He wanted to find out how much they would hold and he did just that. Just cause he wanted to make however much power doesnt mean it had to be with this motor. Yes it sucks but he found out what he wanted to know.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

The stock rods were suspose to hold alot more power. We think we had a bad apple, and didn't plan on having the rods come apart until the 700+awhp range.
There was a reason I wasn't putting in race gas, and I wasn't reving very high (7600rpm). I was worried about the rods coming apart.

It'll get pauters, it'll get race gas, it'll get a 8500rpm redline, and it will be fast.

I guarantee it wasn't just for fun, I don't have the coin to just fuck around with. I really appreciate your comments, but I will be respectful and hold my tongue regarding you and your dealings with life.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

I've got a non-turbo block in my car. What do you think they're made of, cheese?

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

no you dont understand Josh had a few comments a while back about my friend throwing in a non turbo short block(including pistons and rods) until his turbo short block was rebuil. He was planning on doing that just for time being and Josh said that it was pointless and stupid and some other things.

Steve I also have a non turbo block in my car. I know the 2.4 is a non turbo block obviously I pulled mine myself out of a minivan.

As for my life Josh you have no idea. It just didn't make any sense as to why you would not put rod's in when your building a motor. obviously you wanted to go over the power of the stock rod's.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Well, put it this way, what if he snapped the rod and it went through his block or piston then he would have to start all over. Who knows maybe with the twisted rod in there it possibly messed up the bottom part of the sleve in the block. I hope not by all means it sucks to see things like this happen and I am sorry Josh, I wish he best of luck on tearing it apart and getting it ruinning again hopefully on the same block and piston's ect. with just some new rods. Good luck!

Kevin

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Sorry to hear that Swanny, I was hoping to see some more numbers out of it! Hopefully you can still get it back together mid summer and get to the track a few times this year.

As for the forged crank, you already have one! I wouldn't bother with the crank, they aren't known to have issues. I would tend to agree with the theory that it was just a bad rod. I would also check out that injector and make sure it isn't sticking or anything.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Are you planning to have the rod looked at by a metallurgist since it appears you were doing some benchmarking of the stock 3S rods?

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Decent idea. Do you have one in mind?

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Possibly, I'll get back to you.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Sorry to hear what happend... :(


and to all the other naysayers..... This is where we learn our limits, we should thank him for actualy doing it the way he did so that others can learn from his experiment, and who better to do an experiment like this other than a shop, props.

A good suggestion also would be to get a "freebie" exam of the rod maybe see if any of the "metallurgists" would find out if it was a fluke a weakened rod by manufacturing process or something like that.

Hope you get it back out on the road soon...

Good luck!

-E

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Thanks Enes. We honestly believe it was just a defective rod or so. I'll figure it out once I rip the motor apart.
-Josh

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

that rod was made on a monday morning or friday afternoon.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

Things aren't looking too good right now but I'll let you know more down the road.

Re: Finally getting stuff done on our cars
 

best quote ever!

Sorry about the car Josh, but hey at least it sounded wayyy mean and will be running sometime again!

-Colin