Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Sweet action! What did the old set up max out on the dyno? Cant wait till its all good to go!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I think it was about the same as where it's at now, this new setup just had a ton more headroom and isn't being maxed out. I could turn it up to 20+ psi and these turbos would just keep going.

The guy I sold my ECU to has a similar setup and his is making about 400whp on that tune, but his intercooler piping and exhaust are a little smaller. Same turbos and motor though.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Very cool car, glad I got to at least see it on Friday!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I gotta get a ride in this thing someday. I love exotics.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Fuck ing amazing Street car.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Sweet ride, want to see it sometime!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Very Nice!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Well, lot of updates in the past few weeks:
1. Got my "sniper" interface box, so I can load files that my tuner sends me. Computer can load tunes into the box (holds up to 6), and then hook box up via OBD2 and select which tune to load. Pretty easy to use, just select the tune # and hit upload button. Takes about 1 minute, and the box is quite small, so it would be really easy to do an E70 tune or something, and switch back if I needed to take a road trip where there was no E85. Something to consider next year.

2. Got my logger and wideband all wired up. Logs gps, g-forces in 3 directions, OBD2 inputs, wideband, and camera together. I'm pretty happy with the OBD2 refresh, logging TPS and RPM only right now, about 6-8 refreshes each per second. I could hook up a real Hz tach sensor if I wanted better RPM logging, might add that in the future. ECU is not aware of vehicle speed, it's on the front wheel, so I can't log that, have to use GPS which is meh. But I can derive speed based on gear and rpm if the GPS is too laggy.

3. Upper intercooler pipe extended a couple inches, fits much better and the coupler isn't kinked so airflow should be improved.

4. New tune loaded which has 15% more fuel (compensate for different MAF reading on my car, fuel trims are now zero, and WOT is much better looking AFR), and a bit less throttle response down low. Doesn't feel like a rocket ship at 1% throttle now, much easier to drive on the street around 30-40 mph. Feels like a normal car actually, which is better than the standalone MBE ECU it had before.

5. Tightened the wastegate actuators with +2mm of preload. Before the wastegates started to open around 11psi and fully open by 13-14psi. Now they crack open at 14psi and fully open by 17psi. Verified with bicycle pump on both turbos.

6. Now the car doesn't make boost. Couple weeks ago got 13psi by 4000pm. After the above changes, I can hear the turbos spool up when I press throttle, but with full throttle it reaches 0psi but doesn't budge past. Verified on mechanical dash gauge which is hooked to intake manifold, and also my boost controller has a digital readout, hooked directly to compressor housing, also reads 0.0psi. This is what I've checked so far:
a) Verified no rags or blockages in intercooler, pre and post intercooler piping, and turbo inlet piping. Also removed intake manifold, and couldn't see anything there or the head intake ports either.
b) No boost leaks, everything is clamped solid and all vacuum hoses are hooked up, can't blow into any, so none are torn.
c) Checked rear turbo compressor wheel, no blockage and spins freely, no shaft play. Have not checked front turbo because it's a PITA to get to, will have to check that later.
d) Checked rear turbo compressor recirc valve (basically an integrated BOV on the BW EFR turbos). Diaphragm not torn, spring not broken, appears to be working normally from what I can tell. Haven't checked front turbo, need to do this yet.

Things left to check: front turbo wheels spinning and recirc valve. Also want to remove both intake and exhaust on front and rear turbos, to make sure the shaft didn't break which would cause the wheels to spin independently. Once I've verified both turbos are operating correctly, I have no idea what to check next.

Any ideas?

EDIT: just got paid for my old exhaust and both T28 turbos, so I can't put those back on now. Worst case, might have to remove the turbos and send them off for inspection. Car isn't burning any coolant or oil, no smoking from exhaust, etc.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

have you tried to just run vac lines to the wastegates and by pass to bc to see if thats the problem

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

No, I haven't, I can try that but I doubt it would help. The Borg Warners have an electronic boost control solenoid on each turbo. Compressor housing hooked to input, and wastegate to the output. With a fresh air port that is unhooked. The electronic boost controller is also T'd to the front turbo compressor housing. It should hold the solenoids shut until a certain boost level, then let the wastegate see the boost.

According to Borg Warner docs, the boost solenoids default to open if they aren't activated. So worst case, I just run with wastegate spring pressure. But I guess it doesn't hurt to just unplug the wastegates altogether, and plug the solenoids so I don't have a boost leak there. Shouldn't take long to test.

But even with open wastegates, I think I'd build at least a couple psi by 6k rpms. But these Borgs do have pretty huge internal gates, so who knows.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I'd try backing off the preload on the wastegates. I did that to my Green last summer and I seem to remember that at one point, I lost all boost as well, didn't really make any sense.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Silly question: Did you drive up here for the Mitsu cookout last August or was that ANOTHER Noble?!?? o_0

(I didn't take pics of it and can't remember if it had MN plates or not...)

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

It doesn't make sense, but I'll try that too. That was really the only thing I changed related to the turbos, so it's entirely possible. But it will boggle my mind if that actually works.

Yea, that was me.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I'm still new to internal gates surprisingly, I had an external already on my car when I bought it back in 1999. Much easier overall, but now I like the stock look. :D

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

sorry to hear of the issues my friend.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

So far I've tried unplugging the wastegate actuator boost lines, backing off the extra preload I had added, tried loading the stock tune which had crappy driveability, none of them fixed the boost issue.

Next step, remove both intakes and downpipes from the turbos. I'll be checking to make sure both wheels on both turbos are spinning together, not broken, etc.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Just an FYI since I have not been keeping up to date with this.
But when I had a similar issue my wastegate arm was disconnected from the flapper.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Brown might be on to something here. I had a similar issue once too; the preload eventually fatigued the flapper mechanism enough where it started to warp and eventually break off. The symptom was similar to yours: drove fine except no boost. Giving them some additional preload like you did might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. How old are the turbos?

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Time to get out the JB Weld. :D

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

They might be 5000 miles old, or 2 years. These BW EFR turbos haven't been out that long, but it could have been a manufacturing defect. When I have the downpipes off I'll also be checking to see if the flappers are still there inside the turbine housing, and that they look like they're sealing.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

It would be odd for both to go out at the same time though, id still think one would make some boost if one went bad. Report back with findings!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

If it's a metallurgical issue, like what MAP had with the EF turbos where the flapper rod actually twisted under higher loads, adding preload to both could hypothetically cause both to exhibit the same failure simultaneously. Food for thought, but I like the idea of getting the DPs off and checking visually.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I know almost all of the evo guys running the newer BW EFR stuff ditch their wastegate or their so called "high pressure canister" or whatever they call it. Mainly as it just doesn't hold boost at all. Not sure if they are quality or not or just simply don't have enough spring pressure though.

Might be worth swapping those out if you find them to be the culprit.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Yea, the Borgs come by default with the "medium pressure" wastegate actuator. Spring without preload is around the 10psi range, and adding preload can set tension anywhere between 10-17psi before it opens. For you crazy DSM/Evo guys on race gas, that's not enough to run 30psi on an internal gate, so they make a "high pressure" actuator that will open between 17-25psi just on wastegate pressure alone, depending on preload.

Obviously a boost controller can prevent the flapper opening until higher boost amounts, but you don't want a 10psi spring if you're running 30psi because exhaust pressure will force the flapper early, this just results in lower boost than desired.

However, this is not my problem, as I only want to run 15-17psi for the time being. And I have 0 psi.
I still have not had time to take the downpipes off, work is killing me. It's 3am and still at the office. Hopefully by Friday evening I will have time to visually inspect the flappers and turbine wheels..

EDIT: Spaz, these were some of the first BW EFR turbos, so it's definitely possible that it's a metallurgical issue with the arm to the flapper bending and now it's always open. Either that or the turbine wheel was taken out by a piece of exhaust manifold breaking off. Those are my two best guesses right now, will find out soon. The noble/rossion manifolds are notorious for taking out turbos.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

That seems a bit unlikely though as these were fully operational turbos on someone else's car recently. And the chance of both going out seems far fetched, there has to be something else.

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Can you do a boost leak test on the system? Any way that upper intercooler pipe change caused an issue? Maybe a coupler ripped?

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Well, it's been a year since I've driven the car, and I had zero time last year, so I sent it off to Ohio to get fixed. Just before the motor popped it started making boost, and the shop found rock pieces embedded in the pistons, and one compressor wheel had a couple nicks. So it looks like a rock or two must have lodged itself in the compressor causing it to not spin, thus the no boost, then broke free and toasted the motor.

Car now has a brand new motor and 1 new turbo, and went to the dyno today for a tune. One of the turbos seems to be not opening the wastegate, it's making too much boost so it'll be another week or two before it hits the dyno again. But this is the dyno graph from the only run (no tuning), it's a little lean but had zero knock at 25psi and 12.5:1 AFR, good sign that it should be a very reliable setup when it's back down to 16 or 17psi and 11.5:1 AFR.

Shootout (dynojet) numbers are 678hp/601tq. That's way too much for a street car that weighs 2400lbs (I'd never get traction), so he's going to shoot for 550whp at 16psi.
http://www.dsmstyle.com/photopost/da...noble_dyno.jpg

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Nice!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

fuuucccc, that's so badass!!
low boost for road course and high boost for slicks and street fun!!!! :drool:

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

So awesome, hope the wastegate fix is easy and its on its way back to you soon!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

dude, that'd be insane at that weight. Very cool!!

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

Wow! That's crazy power for that car, should be stupid fast. I want a ride. :D

Re: 2006 Noble M400 #141
 

I hope you get it back soon so you can enjoy at least a little of this season!