Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

This will cause uneven power and would that be hard on anything like bearings, pistons or just the total output of power and the equal power numbers made per cylinder.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Cool to see some results. I have a stock 2g mani that you could use if you wanted a base line, could take as long as you wanted with it too.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Are you posting this on other forums? I'd like to hear what others have to say about this since, again, I'm far from an expert on any of this. I'd assume there's a lot more to IM performance other then what was tested here also.

Someone had mentioned something about this test being done with the manifold under vacuum, while it's usually under boost in our application, so are these results valid for our application. I have no idea, just like to see it put up elsewhere besides on here so we can get more input.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I'm honestly not an expert either, so I just have to trust what I have been taught by my boss, who is deffinatly an expert. Flow is flow, no matter if under pressure or vacuum. Intact, I remember reading a few things saying that a pressure situation would actually agravate the issue.

I want to hold off a day or two on spreading the link. I'm working with scheides on having it hosted here instead of my served (borrowed web space from ProKART!) once we get that worked out, then I deffinatly want to get this out!

And yes, baselines are hopefully coming very soon. If I can get some stuff done around the house, I'll pull my stock 1g tonight. And iceminion has offered his cyclone. Doing a 2g would be good to, so long as I don't have to modify my test fixture too much.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Alright, I was holding off on saying anything about this until I saw how the test was going to be performed. I think there are a lot of people that are going to misinterpret this data. The test is NOT representative of the numbers that will be seen inside the engine.

One of the first things many people will notice is that there is no Heimholtz resonance taken in to effect because that can only be seen with the valves opening and closing. In a manifold with a straight back wall, this will not create a difference in flow balance between cylinders, but may change the flow numbers either plus or minus.

Another thing that is a larger issue is that there are no restrictions farther down line in this test (both sets of valves and turbo). This restriction downline from the IM will help to even out the flow of the intake manifold, so you will not see the imbalances to the degree that this test shows. Think of it this way, you have a 5" exhaust with a 1" outlet, will a 6" pipe with a 1" outlet flow any more? No, they will both be limited by the 1" restriction, the restriction is the valves and turbo. The degree of this can't be known unless a running engine is tested at a high flow rate.

I am not saying this test is not useful at all, but people need to be informed to really see what these results mean and I bet the vast majority of the people that will look at these results will not meet that criteria.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

So one thing I was curious about. Did you number the runners like they would be numbered on the car? I.E. runner #1 being farthest from the TB?

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Yes, runners are numbered as your sparkplugs would be.

Scheides got me setup to have this hosted on this board. Thanks alot! I'll get the change made tomarrow and we can start spreading the info.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

AMEN!!! I'm glad most havn't chosen an intake manifold based on constant volume flow. Resonance or not, the intermitant flow demand placed on the intake manifold will make a compressable fluid like intake aircharge act VERY different than a flow bench. The only way to tell which manifold flows the best is th put it on a motor with a known reliable maf like a 2g maf. If you want results for each cylinder, put a wideband on each cylinder and see how lean each is. . . Otherwise look at the whole picture like the real world has to :)

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I'd imagine this testing is at least a good starting point in the research/decision process, correct?

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I agree that these tests aren't the whole picture. But, one has to ask the question, "why don't any of these manufactures flow test, or anything other than dyno test their parts."

I plan on showing the constructive critisisim comments to my boss, who will be able to much better answer these questions. One thing I can tell you though, at 30+ pounds of boost, we are forcing much more air through the intake than the flow bench is capable of. Makes you wonder how the incocsistency translates at those levels. I don't think that anybody can argue the importance of having each cylinder having balanced output, which will require balanced input.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Yes balanced flow has it's place and is important in that place. Where did the stock 1g manifold rate?

Please don't stop testing!!!! Good stuff. This is why I registered to this forum. I think you should go to the next level since you have the manifolds (if you get permmission). Do better than what the vendors do. Log the volume flow difference on a common setup like 272s and a stock exhaust manifold varying from 20-30psi and typical intercooler piping diameter and typical intercooler. There's lots of variables there, but so many choose close to the same thing WRT sizing and cams, that you will find good data for many.

Hmm apparently tubulance had no effect on flow numbers as some manifolds flowed less and had less turbulance than others and some runners of the same manifold had more turbulance but flowed in the same area or more than others.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Actually, the turbulance had a large impact on the flow. One of the manifolds we spent a little time wessing around with, we were able to eliminate the turbulance, which brought the flow numbers within 1%. None of that is noted because that would be a design change, which I have no wish to get into.

I have been approached by a company wanting to take this to a dyno test in the spring. I honestly don't know if that will materialize or not, as people are not going to want to lend out their manifolds then, but well see what we can come up with when the time comes.

And as far as the 1g intake, I JUST got mine off. I have 3 bloody knuckles to show for it as well. I guess I'll start that wire tuck since there's nothing I the way now.

I'll update with the 1g findings, and hopefully the beyond redline numbers tomarrow, if ups can manage to deliver somthing on time for once!

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

First off is thanks for getting this together, and second is just wow at the numbers. I can not take credit for the runner design or die I am using, and the rest is to close to the AMS VSR that I do not want to get into it. I do know why that number 1 runner did a little less, its good to see the little things are what makes the difference.

I have a finished "race" manifold here I am going to get in your hands before the holidays. This unit has a bigger plenum and a bigger radius on the runner inlets. I am also going to make a "drag" version which will have a lot bigger plenum and a little different runner setup. I would like to see the manifold tested that was on my car, that was a little different then either one I have made also (talk to GREASEMONKEY he has it now). And I do plan on making these by order: the customer would specify runner length, runner tapper, radius size into runners, vac port locations and plenum volume and TB flange. I will also be warranting these manifolds to as much boost as you can get in there from a turbo, and anything besides a major nitrous back fire (I inside/outside weld the hole manifold, minus the end cap and TB flange, but I can weld the inside of the end cap with request, and with a Q45 TB flange I might be able to weld the inside of that also).

Which I can/could add nitrous and additional injectors at an added fee. And I plan to do this at mostly the same price. I hope the rest of the flow bench test go well and it would be nice to see these on a car to see the numbers backed up. JET get one done so we can see what it will do.

~John

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Wow, thanks to all who repsonded ,and participated. It was a pleasant suprise the response I got from a few of you whom i texted that night a few weeks ago. Now we have a solid base from all manifolds tested to present to everyone. Thanks to Greg for actually doing all the testing.

I'm sorta suprised that my new mani didn't do better then it did. But, i do see that i should run the q45 and not the 1g with the plate..lol

-A. Swift

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Hmm....

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

MattD has my stock evo manifold and TB....you should test it once he gets it back to me. :) We may have a ported manifold and 65mm TB for you to test soon thereafter. These are hot mods for the evo guys.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Well put...

I am kind of interested in the LSE manifold design. It is interesting to look and compare the pictures of the designs and then try to figure out why they flowed like they did.

I am curious, why isn't the LSE manifold taper at the end like the rest of them? or is it and I am just at a bad angle?

Or is the design Top Secret?

I have been reading up on intake manifold designs (in actual BOOKS!) and just curious why it is designed that way compared to other aftermarket intake manifolds.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Really cool to see results!

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I am the guy to ask about the LSE manifold, PM me with specific questions. When I finalize a base design that will be "mass" produced I will write up all the details and why the manifold ended up the way it did.

~John

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

It may be because these results do not translate to real life at all, but I am not sure if they do or not. I know when the other SMIM test was done they decided not to do a flow bench because it was not realistic. Instead they put each one on the dyno.

I wish I had more information to help put this together, but I don't. One thing is for sure though, a balanced manifold on the flow bench can't be a bad thing on a real car.

And yes, the air going through a flow bench is not even close to the air going through it at high RPM, the air is at over 200mph in a real car.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

If you are seeing 445 cfm per port that would equal 1780cfm. So I ran this calculation CFM = (L x RPM x VE x Pr)/ 5660
So my numbers are assuming 100% VE.
(2 x 10000 x 100 x 4.2)/5660 = 1484.1 cfm
assuming 90% VE = 1335.7 cfm
assuming 110% VE =1632.5 cfm

Unless I am missing something.

~John

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

OK, I showed my boss the replies, so I could better answer these issues.

The Heimholtz resistance is in no way relative when testing a forced induction intake manifold. I got a crash course in what Heimholtz resistance is and how it is determined. Not only is it not relative, but even if it were, would differ depending on the individuals COMPLETE setup.

As far as the restrictions further down the line. Yes, those would effect the efficieancy of each individual cylinder. However, each cylinder has 2 equally sized valves, equally sized ports, cumbustion chambers, into the exhaust manifold and finally meet in the turbo. So arguing that these restrictions would change the balance of the intake manifold is not correct.
And yes, a exhaust manifold that is uneven could easily impact the power and afr balance of each cylinder. If you are going to ask a imbalanced exhaust manifold to counteract a imbalanced intake, then you have far more problems with your setup than most either of these parts are going to help.
Simply put, the intake manifold is the first part that divides the engines air charge. If it is imbalanced, then the rest of the parts don't have a chance at staying balanced.

If the flowbench is showing a 10% difference when comparing runners, that 10% is going to carry wether it was at X amount of vaccum, or Y amount of boost. So, if at 400 cfm it is 40 cfm short (10%), then at 1200 CFM, it will be 120cfm short. The more boost you run, the worse it gets. The percentage stays the same, but the difference in the volume of air will grow.

The suggestion of using a 2g maf and wideband per cylinder would be a different way to determine the imbalance per runner. You could also math out the airfolw per cylinder. By looking at the total airflow divided by the amount of runners, then adding or subtracting the different percentages seen with the wbo2's. However, I don't know anybody who is setup to do that, and it would be much more time consuming to get the same information, with much more chance for error. A flow bench can't lie, and there are no extra components to add to a percentage of error.
Infact, there was a period of time that GM and some of the larger race shops tested there intakes by dry spinning the engine to redline, and measuring the total airflow with either a cfm stack or a MAF sensor. This was quickly abandoned though, because of the added time and cost, as well as it did not give the ability to track individual cylinder changes. They all went back to the flow bench beacuse it was considered to be more accurate and much simpler.

Looking at the "whole picture" like the real world has to is the problem that we have been dealing with. The real world (I assume you mean end users, us DSMers) isn't setup to test these either the way I have, or the way that you suggest. If they did, I doubt there would be such a discrepency in these parts. And this is the way the racing world and industrial world tests their parts.

Finally, to the comment that these results don't represent real life at all. That is flat out wrong. Simply put, The auto manufactures, race teams, and industrial research and development departments all use a flow bench for all of their airflow design needs. That is its purpose, and the industry accepted way to do things. I have been told by two intake manufactures featured in this test, that the reason they have not provided any flow information, or even done that sort of testing, is because they feel that the average user will not know what to do with the information. The reason that Beyond Redline sent me a manifold was they wanted to know for themselves how their part does, because they had not yet flow tested it.

My boss (the guy that has been helping me in all of this) has been heavily involved in the development of intake manifolds and cylinder heads for champion nextel cup teams, forced induction race teams, and industrial companys like Catapiller and Daewoo. That is why I consider him to be an expert. He obviously knows what he is doing if these billion dollar companies are asking him to design, test, or fix their parts. I am very fortunate to have him be so willing to help me on things like this. Most of us do not have this type of resource.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

FYI:

Stock 1st gen and Beyond Redline test results are now on the page. I haven't included pictures yet, because my camera died. Appareantly, you have to charge these things!

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I'm not saying that I don't trust him. I'd like a little more education. Why does helmholtz vibration not take place? Or why is resonating such vibrations not important or possible with a boosted application?

I can see it differing based on cam intake close angle. Of course, this is what affects helmholtz resonance in a non boost application. Do you remember why? Can you pick his brain a little more about this?

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I seem to remember one of worlds worst cars (from some list) not getting the helmholtz resonance right in the intake manifold. it was on car talk or something.

If i remember right, it made the gas in the carb bowl foam... not good

Thought this would be a good laugh

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

The Heimholtz resonance does not vary with the complete setup, it relies only on the taper of the runners, distance from the back wall of the intake manifold, speed of the air and the time the valve closes and reopens. It is true that it isn't as big of an issue in a boosted application, but it is still a factor. The only thing that will change the resonance is cam timing for a specific application like this. It is true that the resonance can only be tuned for specific RPM range.

For others: the heimholtz resonance is the shock wave that is reflected from the valve closing, bouncing off the back wall of the manifold and shooting back in to the head. If this is timed correctly it can force extra air into the cylinder.

This is not exactly correct, especially the part about it flowing 10% at any volume of air. This does not take in to account the efficiency of the air going past a restriction. The valves have a choke point and the closer you get to the choke point, the more restriction the air has. The 10% greater volume of air is just a measurement of the forces that are acting. As the air further downstream becomes less efficient it will take greater and greater force to get the air through the restriction. This will mean the runner with less flow is more efficient than the runner with higher flow, thus helping to equalize the difference between cylinders.

Then there is all of the forces that happen during valve overlap, but I am too tired to get in to that :p

What I said is the extent of the cylinder variances is not going to be equal on the flow bench as compared to what is seen in a real engine. Will there still be a difference? Yes. Will it be the exact differences you have shown in the flow bench testing? No. I agree that it is optimal to have all of the cylinders equal, I just worry people are going to start changing their mixtures 11.7% for one cylinder because your testing showed that it flowed 11.7% more air on a flow bench when this will not be the case in their engine.

I know we have a few engineers on here that have studied heavily in fluid dynamics, I would like to hear their take on this (floppy head and Jakey specifically) as well as anyone else that is well versed on the subject.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Merry Christmas everybody! Hopefully, santa brought you all some go fast parts!

Got a few more emails from people over the holiday with good feedback.

Jet: Hopefully the conversations you had with my boss helped to explain this a little further to you. I wish I was well enough versed to have helped you myself, but im still learning. I guess we never stop though!

Pushit2.0 dropped off his next manifold to me, that has a slightly larger plenum, and a nicer overall appearance. I will get this manifold flowed on monday, and update the site as well as hopefully get the pics up im missing. Eventually, ill find the camera charger!!!


Hope you all have a good new years.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Can you dumb down the results when you are done for common folk like me?

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

+1! lol

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I've seen bad cam grinds throw off airflow and therefore fueling requirements per cylinder over 25%. An improper flowing manifold could also have very similar effects.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

But that always introduces opinion. Just push a little further. You'll be happy with what you learn.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

After talking with him it seems like we are in agreement with most things. I didn't get a response to my PM though, but I am sure he isn't on here often. I am curios to see what he says about the valve restriction helping to even out airflow. The biggest concern I have is someone getting this information and not understanding it correctly. It definitely can be useful for people that understand it though.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

it was explained to me well the other day. I also will be having you flow test my exhaust mani with this "heinz 51" theory ;)


Still, good info, and thanks again for running the test. glad to see people can be motivated enough to do something rather then sit around a DnB parking lot, and just talk about it for two hours ;)
-A. Swift

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

ANY information for anything can be mis-interpereted.What has been presented is in it's most basic form.You need to draw your own conclusions.
Heimholtz calculations can be a useful design tool,but they are irrelevant to this simple test as we have not identified a specific engine combination and are merely doing comparative analysis of parts at hand.
Old Guy

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

I had a conversation with Tim from Beyond Redline. It sounds like they want to host a dyno test with a few of these manifolds in the relatively near future. I believe he will be posting the information here in the near future.

I got pushit's next mani tested today. I will get the updates made to the site tonight. Still no pics of the last few yet. I might just take them with my iPhone and resize them to get it done. Its a hassle, but I can't find the charger for my camera anywhere.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Hmmm, dyno test would be awesome.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Cool, dyno numbers would be cool, but having a vendor of one of the manifolds in question worries me. The way some people are, I wouldn't be suprised if the numbers got skewed. It'd be nice if it were a more neutral party dyno testing them.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

If they are merely a host and were supervised by a neutral party I see no reason why Beyond Redine can't hold a fair dyno competition. I doubt any non-manufactuer would be willing to donate the time needed to swap so many different manifolds and dyno test them all.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

The plan we have been discussing is to use their facility and dyno, but somebody's car that they do not know, or have any association with. The manifolds would be tested back to back.

Also, we plan to tune the car with each manifold. Obviously, if one manifold allows the engine to breathe better, it will require more fuel. As a rough plan, tune each car to a set AFR, and set timing as high as possible without knock.

Re: SMIM Showdown! Lets figure this out once and for all!
 

Hasn't exactly that been done a few years back?

Where are these guys located?