Re: beaterX project thread
 

Does that mean I won't get banned anymore for suggesting E85?

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Muahaha, unless I say 'it's not an option' first! But now it is :D

I had to re-seat one of my injector clips (the adapter part) this am, it was loose and the car was missing when I pulled out of the garage.

Having a weird fuel curve problem, the car just wants to go way rich then steadily lean out as the run progresses. This happens if I start at 4000 or 5500rpm, dips to 10 then leans out to around 12.

http://scheides.com/misc/pics/evox/e...eaning-out.jpg

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Do you know if the dual voltage feature works on rpm or load? If it were load then that could explain the dip when the voltage increases.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I believe it is based on load which would probably explain it, but the thing is my old injectors on pump gas never did this; these must be so big they are letting a lot through....leaning it out via the fuel map shouldn't be a problem but it goes *so* rich that it's just odd to me, coupled with the fact that it steadily leans out from there even though the fuel map seems to be pretty flat up top.

It's issues like these that make me glad I have a good logging setup including wideband so I can try and troubleshoot issues before I hit the dyno with shane.

I think I will tweak the fuel map slightly and see if it helps, then probably up the boost and make sure fueling remains consistent; I sure hope this DW pump lives up to the hype--I don't have any money budgeted for a BAP.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Time for an update I suppose. Shane @ DB Performance, thank you! Basically I have hit an unexpected wall on my fuel system and shane has help me make the most out of it with a little bit of advice and me doing some street tuning.

Let me back up a bit. First off, why the fuk am I out of fuel on this build? I have FIC1680cc injectors and the new DeatschWerks 300-series fuel pump that should outflow a walbro any day of the week. Simple fact is that my fuel pump just doesn't seem to be keeping up. I've researched high and low (thank you EVERYONE that offered advice! LOMKER! diiirk@AWDmotorsports, Murlo, Chris@MAP, Chris@DW to name a few in addition to Shane@DB) and pretty much determined that despite the testing DW did on this pump, for whatever reason, on the X it is not keeping up utilizing the stock wiring.

I did a lot of street tuning and anytime boost is over 26psi at 8000rpm I see 13:1 AFR. Timing and afr in the rest of the map are mostly untouched from the pump gas tune in this log:
http://scheides.com/misc/pics/evox/e...eaning-out.jpg

So, I have two options, both involve getting more voltage to the fuel pump. One, a hardware kit for teh fuel pump. This will run it at closer to 14v but *all* the time, no dual-voltage setup like stock so the stock FPR will be over-run at idle. Boo! With an aftermarket FPR kit I'll be in good shape for my setup I think. Gah, more parts wtf!?! Well Chris Carey at MAP is running this setup on his X with great luck so it is a viable option and not terribly expensive.

Side note #1: what is really the difference between the X and the 8/9 causing me (and others) to see this limit earlier than expected? I'm not sure, but there are two pieces that jump out at me. One is the stock hardline that runs along the side of the valvecover. The feed line on the 8/9 is IMHO bigger and might flow more. I'm tempted to try and find out somehow but this would be an expensive test. Next, the fuel feed line in the tank. I know others use it but I'm thinking of getting rid of this snake and replacing it with some 30w10 or whatever the hell special (uncrinkled) fuel line is:
http://www.scheides.com/gallery/evoX/dw300_4



Option two, best of both worlds IMHO. No upgrades anywhere else in the fuel system, just overclock the DW300 pump with a boost-a-pump. The street version can run up to 17.5v but I was thinking of getting one and wiring it to run the pump at ~15v for heat/longevity purposes. This setup is about as ideal as I can ask for since it only runs high voltage during boost so no AFPR needed AND I could get MORE out of the system if I ever need it. Muahahah!


Side note #2: while I'm having fuel pump issues I'm also having tons of problems with the FIC 1680's I bought second hand. I want to recommend these injectors to people as they are amazing! They run fine on pump gas and (theoretically) have enough flow to make pretty epic power on e85. The problems I'm having are with the mounting spacers (I got none, and they sent me new ones that didn't fit either) and the OMFGGODDAMNIT injector adapter harnesses. This is what I have been forced to do:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/IMG_0008.sized.jpg
Otherwise the clip comes loose and the car misfires horribly. Regularly. Gah! FIC has done an AMAZING job and I hate to even post this info until after I receive all of the parts they put in the mail yesterday but fuk it, it is testiment to their amazing customer service and top-notch quality. I will post more pics/info when I get them.


Ok back on track, what most people and myself overlook is OPTION 3--TURN DOWN THE BOOST! Wait wut? I know, its insane, but the car is already feeling amazing on e85...for now I simply have turned down WGDC to zero across the board on my hybrid boost control setup and am basically running just a MBC. I turned up the boost on the MBC and let the thing taper to ~25psi at 8000rpm, just barely within the limits of the fuel system as it sits. It sucks, but hey, make the most of it!

This is where Shane came in, he has helped me dial this thing in...it is still pretty damn conservative, only 17° of timing up top and 9° during boost onset but it is damn consistent now (for the past week timing would jump all over the place under boost) and it mofukin rips! Timing steps up nice and evenly and afr is right around 12:1 all the way across the board. This is two runs back-to-back, obviously I started at different rpms/speeds, thus boost is ever so slightly different way down low:
http://scheides.com/misc/pics/evox/e...pump-maxed.jpg

That is about as good as I am going to expect out of this lil beaterX for now. Whenever I get some fundage I'll score a BAP and turn it up and hit the dyno, but for now its ALL SMILES as this thing runs fantastic and it is a hoot all over the powerband!

I am just barely at the limit of the fuel system now, before I was pegging 115% IDC waaaay earlier:
http://scheides.com/misc/pics/evox/e...-maxed-idc.jpg


One more fun item to add to this um.....long and rambling post--my brother bought me a GoPro HD for my b-day. Definitely turn the quality up to 720 but these things are fantastic. Turns out my neighbor is the local GoPro rep, he saw me fiddling with it and ran over. First a tour of tornado-damaged minneapolis, then some rippin near the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urjfUEosJV0&hd=1

BIR is only a few weeks away, hoping to get fuel system issues sorted by then....hope everyone else is working on making their car fast as much as I have been!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Not saying it's an issue but I use the Ultimate Racing install kit and their instructions have you route the hose differently.

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/a...ockhanger1.jpg

I wonder if it ended up working for Zivman, from the other forum. He hasn't returned to comment. I say that because isn't Chris Carey on stock turbo? Not much of a test otherwise.

I'm feeling doubtful about my car at the moment. It'd be nice to be able to drive it up there, that's for sure.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I had to laugh at the GoPro moving from the wind. Is there a way to tighten it more or are you forced to deal with that?

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Yea, I sorta screwed the pooch installing mine, I had the pump out of the bracket when pushing on that hose...once its on its on...and thats why it ended up the way it did. It's not kinked anywhere but this is the reason I got some of that other hose, to try and route it more smoothly.


Yea, he said he hit the limit aaaand they have a new turbo program they're about to launch so...you do the math :) We'll see I guess but he was very honest and plain about running into the limit and rewiring it helping. To me the kinda downside to a rewire vs a BAP is that 14v is all you get. If I go with a BAP at least I can turn it up later if need be :)

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Yea just need more practice with the rigging thats all :)

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I managed to get mine off the other day when I swapped pumps but it did result in an E85 bath. :rock2:

Re: beaterX project thread
 

WTF I talked to Jens @ FIC thursday afternoon and he said he'd throw the stuff in the mail. Umm yea, guess I get to play with the fuel system more this weekend (if I feel up for it!) and a bday present from Jens :P

http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/...arts.sized.jpg

http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/...11_1.sized.jpg

Old setup on the left, new on the right (with stock spacer)
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/...13_1.sized.jpg

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Spacers for a fuel pump, haha. What has the world come to? Put a fuel cell in it or something, seems like it would be easier and cheaper in the end.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Spacers for the fuel rail man :P No fuel cell or surge tank for this thing, it already has the tiniest trunk of any 4-door sedan in on the planet!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Oooh god I may really need that BAP sooner than later! Anna got me this for my bday:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/..._bov.sized.jpg

Chad @ CBRD raves about these, if it can hold boost like a Ron-crushed stock bov but have the driveability of an uncrushed stocker, I will be a happy boy!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Very nice, I'm also thinking about trying one of those. Looking forward to your review!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

True dat. Good thing I don't need it for anything.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Nice bday gift

Re: beaterX project thread
 

BAP now! Do it :) Buy lomkers doesn't he have one hes not using?

I want to see another 450whp bbx at DB!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I'm using it. The Weldon install will require a custom mount for the trunk and a retune. I'm guessing that Shane will be far too busy until after Proving Grounds...he was last year.

I offered to let scheides test the Jays 340 pump. Not sure if it's enough difference or not.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

ah, forgot you haven't taken it out yet.

Scheides do it, the 340, try it out :)

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Took some time today to play with teh beater. Here's the new injector adapter on the left, old one on the right. See the two kinda 'wings' on the side on the new one and not on the old one? That is what helps keep it straight in the plug and not necessitate zip tie racing :P Also the 'hook' on the top is bigger so it seems to hold more snug. The EV1 connector (dsm/ct9a evo-style) is revised as well. It is more sold too, although seating them and getting them off is tougher as it is tighter:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/...lips.sized.jpg

Here's the new spacer setup installed. The one end of the fitting is machined a bit so it slides into the fuel rail or IM properly, and the outside donut (see previous pictures) helps keep it flat and properly supported. The injectors fit absolutely *perfect* now, I am SO HAPPY! These things are fidgity when installing and I always drop them, so I went ahead and put a few little dabs of RTV inbetween the three pieces to just keep them from falling apart on install (and hopefully uninstall whenever that day comes):
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/..._001.sized.jpg

Cobb BOV installed, that took all of 3 minutes! Only item of note is that the boost source nipple faces 6 o'clock and the stocker points to around 10:30 so I had to adjust the hose for that:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/..._001.sized.jpg

Driving impressions? I am *really* impressed so far, even turning it about 3/4 to full tight (I think) it is stock-like driveability on the freeway and around town and it seems to hold boost just fine, I'll be reviewing logs this week.

After everything under the hood was buttoned up, I decided to yank the fuel hanger. Spaz got me some 30r10 hose and I had to see if it would fit.

First item of note, the filter/screen is bent but NOT kinked, so no fuel blockage there:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/IMG_0007.sized.jpg

Then I removed the bendy hose and test fit the 30r10...bad news. Even if it was long enough it just wants to fold over on itself once the pump is where it would be in the tank. Boo. Really need the cobb-style S-shaped fuel line for this I think...maybe it wouldn't get kinked and I guestimated placement wrong...but still it is close and it wants to kink flat.
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/IMG_0011.sized.jpg

So back in with the bendy-straw hose, I routed it more smoothly this time:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/..._001.sized.jpg

Notice how it doesn't get kinked when the top is compressed as it would be in the tank:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/IMG_0014.sized.jpg

Also took apart the little return filter that lomker linked to in his thread, mine is debris-free but I can see why people might want to mod that stuff, its like a needle-hole!

Back together it runs like a champ! I even put the engine cover back on, I am officially done messing around under the hood for a while.

I just need to figure out how to rewire the stock plug for it and I'm all over it. Do the pins on the stock plug pull out easy, or did you have yours hardwired?

Also noted the guy from evomn.net who simply re-wired his Jays 340 pump and is using the stock FPR....tempting to say the least!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Interestingly enough, I got everything you could need on hand...a relay for a rewire, the Jays pump, and a 40amp BAP. ;)

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Ooooh, right, now that you have the new biggie pump in you won't need the BAP anymore? Sounds like we need to team up for a weekend on each other's cars :)

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Oops!

http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/evox_bap1.sized.jpg

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Oh really? Lomkers old one?

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Nah, he wants to hang onto his for a while and I don't blame him. I wanted pretty badly to put this off and just enjoy the car as-is but between the new BOV causing the car to lean out even quicker and some bday money I decided to just pull the trigger and get it over with. I really wasn't planning on spending more money on the car right now but I think everyone has been in this position.

As much as it sucks (hehe) I'll be happy to have the fuel system done and get the car tuned and ready for MAP Proving Grounds!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Took some long drives (with plenty of boost) this weekend to Northfield (college reunion) and then Wilmar (helped Kody reinstall his tranny), the car got 18.4mpg. Not bad I say!


In other news, BAP installed. Here's the package. Lots of wires but really the install is dead simple.

http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/evox_bap2.sized.jpg

Goes inline with the power line to the pump:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/bap4.sized.jpg

And mounted in the trunk, I used a stock bracket, a big hose clamp, and some fuel line for a nice soft but secure mount:
http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/bap5.sized.jpg

All the wires heat shrink wrapped and sealed spade connectors for easy reversion if need be. I had planned on replacing the rheostat dial that lets you run stock voltage or up to 17.5v with a simple resister setup. Dan @DB says that is the only fault with these things, the dial itself dies after a while, so they usually just hardwire them to max voltage. I thought I'd go easy on the pump and use a 3.3k or 1.8k resister and one of these nice DIY RCA plugs, maybe run it at 15 or 16v:

http://www.scheides.com/albums/evoX/evox_bap3.sized.jpg

But I did hook up the dial for initial testing, and I set it right in the middle. I didn't measure, but this should be around 15.75v to the pump. I just turned the boost up and let'r rip. It is not the most beautiful boost curve, but it doesn't matter, I have more fuel now :)

http://scheides.com/misc/pics/evox/evox-bap-test1.jpg

Again, ignore spool-up, these were started at different RPM. My main concern is 6000+rpm where boost is now 2-3psi higher and AFRs are about the same. YAY!

I am still pretty much maxing this setup out so I think I'm going to just crank the BAP to max and let'r buck. I have an appointment with Shane @ DB next Wednesday...

Re: beaterX project thread
 

woo

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I can first hand attest to those voltage controllers going bad over time. My old car would have a very weird afr curve then go super lean up top, ripped out that controller and hardwired the two wires together and fixed the issue.

Good luck with it!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Cool, thanks man! I basically have it hooked up for testing purposes and then it'll get the heave-ho. It's not hard to imagine it failing over time, it is light as hell and does not feel very substantial. Not the kind of part that belongs in a car, esp hooked up to the BAP itself which is beefy and tough!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Looking forward to updates! Sooooo, 430? 440whp-ish?

Re: beaterX project thread
 

460 wouldn't surprise me. I did 450 but I'm conservative with boost and my motor has low compression.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Oh snaps. Well shit might as well crank it to 11 and shoot for 500!!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Awesome. With the BAP going inline with the fuel pump for power is there any worry about either pump lacking voltage? I would have expected it to need to be hard wired.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

I couldn't get the BAP to work predictably when wired inline. My suspicion is that it doesn't like the dual-voltage that comes from the car. I used the wire from the car to trip a Bosch relay so it was fed from the battery. The BAP can also draw some crazy current to maintain the higher voltage and the stock wiring didn't look that confidence inspiring to me.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Oh snaps, can't wait for the numbers!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

500 is awfully tough for a stock frame on the X...the black barely gets that, but I think 450-460 is the area he could see if everything works great.

Great work though Scheides, can't wait to see your results...I will need another ride!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Right around 430 is all I want, that's what my evo8 had and I was very happy with it. If it makes more, then well...we'll just call it gravy :)

I hear ya, I thought about it quite a bit but half the reason I bought the BAP was so I could maintain the stock dual voltage setup. Now I have a tri-voltage setup! 8-14-17.5 :D Down the road I might look into a FPR setup and see about eliminating other restrictions in the fuel system and then rewire it as you described. It may not be needed now but there's still plenty more mods to do on this thing--ported IM/TB, bigger cams, bigger turbo....who knows what the future holds!

Re: beaterX project thread
 

Right-o, I forgot about the return issue since I wasn't on the stock hanger at that time. I was just annoyed that it couldn't be tested at idle (it can't make the leap from 9->17volts) so I rewired it.

Re: beaterX project thread
 

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