Yes, for example, they will hire a outsorcing company here, who will in turn get contractors from indian company, what does that mean..

US does not get a peny in earned wages get taxed, nothing for SSI or anything that stays in US market, people loose jobs, spend less, smaller companies don't sell enough, close, more people out of work. middle class just moved to poor class..


-E

I tried and tried to stay away from this but im gonna have to go and shoot my mouth off sorry.

There have been a lot of valid points made by both partys. and if you guys wanna hear it then i will say it, "John Kerry will be a GREAT President." When you see the debates and such you realise that this man sees what is going on and will try to change that wrongdoings bush has led us into. Its not surprising that what we know now is that we were lied to time and time again that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that there were no nukes in there. so why then were we led to believe they were. Because there was an alterior motive for going into iraq. wether we find out now or find out later either way it is done and theres nothing that is going to change what happened.
Saddam was a very very bad person i do know this but 9/11 had nothing to do with him and we had no proof that he did have something to do with it.
ok with that said, on to overseas jobs and the middle class.
Moving jobs overseas is the worst fucking idea since the mexicans wanting reperations for deporting illegal ones. The middle class has been greatly affected by overseas jobs. "the rich get richer the poor get poorer" there is no room in america for middle class as far as big business and government is concerned, heres my explaination to what i just stated, The way big business looks at middle america is that we dont have enough money to buy the pricey items so they figure they can make more if manufactureing costs are lower. Now if we are trying to bring the global economy up as CVD so arrogantly put it by sending jobs over there, isnt that just like the governtment giving other countries money just to help them out, but in the same time fucking the working man. YES. Fuck other countries that dont give a shit about us. Honestly Economy is fiction. Its fiction in the sence that no matter what there is going to be a lower and a upper class, the middle is bullshit. and if we try to make everyone rich then the so called economy will crash and chaos will ensue. because the doller will not mean anything. so i say fuck these big businesses laying off honest workers to give jobs to other countries that will do it for pennies on the dollar. And Fuck those people in those countries for doing this shit for so cheap.

I actually agree with tom for once. I never thought that could happen...

Well tonight Bush followed the lead of Cheney the other night in handing Kerry his ass back to him on the end of a corn cob :thumbsup:

Bush did better than last time, but he didn't beat kerry by any means. CNN even considers it a tie. Bush didn't really even talk about any changes he would make if he was elected again. I don't know how all republicans always think your canidate did any better. Maybe you should take off your republican glasses for the next debate. I don't know how bush could have won since he didn't really even talk about any new plans for if he was elected.

1. CNN is a liberal news channel

2. Why would Bush talk about changes when hes going to be pursuing his current policies???

And Tom, our government isnt GIVING away anything. It's ALLOWING companies to outsource. Giving them the freedom to choose. That is what I'm arguing for!!! You cant make shit illegal (or even taxed to the point where it's not economically viable) because you dont like it, or because it may cost people jobs.

The rights of the people come first and foremost! Who is the gov't to tell me that I CANT hire people from another country if it will help my company?

Can you give me a conservative news channel? I want to see what all you are creaming your pants when ever Bush "tries" to talk. I have not seen anything on TV that gives me a reason to support Bush. Unlike all of you, I am open to information I do not want to hear.

Time to take off the party glasses and look at everything as a whole. Seems to me that most of you on here are very closed minded about everything. I am not going to point out any names on here but several people talk out of their asses. You can probly tell by who always has an edit after their posts.

Me? I always find spelling mistakes, that why my posts are always edited.

Fox is a conservative news channel.

"That is what I'm arguing for!!! You cant make shit illegal (or even taxed to the point where it's not economically viable) because you dont like it, or because it may cost people jobs."
When did i say to make it illegal??? i think we should stop giving tax breaks for companies that are stealing jobs away from americans.

I am not going to state names but someone was totally against stem cell reseach and changed their reply later saying that they were in favor of it. They must be a "flip flopper" huh?

I agree with Tom and taxes above.

Can you give me a conservative news channel? I want to see what all you are creaming your pants when ever Bush "tries" to talk. I have not seen anything on TV that gives me a reason to support Bush. Unlike all of you, I am open to information I do not want to hear.

Time to take off the party glasses and look at everything as a whole. Seems to me that most of you on here are very closed minded about everything. I am not going to point out any names on here but several people talk out of their asses. You can probly tell by who always has an edit after their posts. [/b][/quote]
Fox is conservative. You mentioned several are talking out their asses. Ohm, that would be you. You started this post. I really believe you are questioning your beliefs, otherwise you would not be asking questions. Dont make decisions by what you see on TV. Make decisions about who you want to vote for by understanding republican view and a democratic view. Next step is to really think about the answers and open your mind. I beleive most people vote democrat through emotion. That is probably why I see people like michael moore or ridiculous people standing on bridge yelling at cars to vote for kerry. The debate to me means nothing. I am not undecided, but believe Bush won the second debate. Kerry is like a trail lawyer putting on a show.

I am still looking for information. I am not one of the closed minded people on here. I have, and currently am, watching Fox news right now. All I have seen is Condeleza Rice refusing to admit that the Bush administration was wrong in Iraq. They showed statements prior to war that were made and contrasted them to current statements. Nobody will admit that they are wrong. They will not admit that they could have done better. As far as the 2nd debate went, I have still not watched it. They just interviewed 4 people on Fox news (conservative news). One thought Bush had the edge but the other three agreed that he bounced back a bit from the first debate but did not win the debate. They all called it a draw saying that Bush bounced back but Kerry still has the momentum going into the third debate. I have it on tape and am going to watch it.

Why not be a part of the cause rather then complain like all the democrats. Information your getting now is mostly attacks from either side. Democrats agreed we should go into iraq, they just think could of handled it better. Mabey, but taking action is the right way to handle it. They are just using the war on iraq as a political front in order to get in office. You asked earlier if there is a conservative channel. Why did you ask this question if you were watching fox in the first place. Why do you believe people are closed minded here. Everyone is watching the news, but the ones who have made a decision allready have done research. I would do some research on kerry so you can find out that he has accomplished nothing since he has been around for 20 years and is the most liberal senator around. Worse then wellstone. I would want someone that has a good background and track record, leadership ability (not trial lawyer speaking skills during a debate), experience running the country. kerry is not even well liked among the democrats. He is not someone who can lead. no back bone. If you want higher taxes and terrorism in are back yard, vote kerry. Democrats want a government run country. I want freedom.

what was wrong with wellstone?

Fox news, fair and balanced.

??????

I wasn't before. I mostly watched CNN but they are a "liberal" news channel. I started watching Fox the other day because they show the "conservative" aspect. I am looking at both sides dumbass, that is why I asked what is a conservative channel as all the others seem to be liberal in your minds.

Because all of you Bush lovers still cannot admit the truth on some items. One for example would be that Kerry swept the floor with Bush in the first debate. Bush came off to me as a dumb guy that cannot even articulate.

Being able to articulate is very important in my mind. If you kow what you are talking about, you should be able to speak your mind. If you stumble across every question that is asked to you and change the question half way through, I look down upon that. You do not seem very credible at all. If you do not seem credible, why should I believe you? Especially with all the lying going on now.

[QUOTE] Democrats want a government run country. I want freedom. [QUOTE]
Ok, lets get rid of all the police and all the government employees. I see no need for them. When someone murders your mom for her neclace, do not call the police, FBI, or any other governmental agency to help you out. Take your freedom and find that fucker on your own.
We need a government run country. What would we do without it? The government can regulate businesses to be fair to the consumer. The government can and should help americans get health insurance and fix the economy. Several of the government contols have been set aside right now. I believe I read in the paper yesterday that over 5,000,000 people have lost health care under Bush. The average family of 4 spends $10,000/year on Health care. The average health care premium has gone up 3 times compared to the average salary one takes home. Read the OP section in sundays paper. Bush's health care plan is compared to that of Kerry. If America is dying due to lack of health care, are we going to have troops to go to war? Some things need to be changed.

look at the screenshot tool. it is all por bush anti kerry. i sure would trust them.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA90994DC404482

I wasn't before. I mostly watched CNN but they are a "liberal" news channel. I started watching Fox the other day because they show the "conservative" aspect. I am looking at both sides dumbass, that is why I asked what is a conservative channel as all the others seem to be liberal in your minds.

Because all of you Bush lovers still cannot admit the truth on some items. One for example would be that Kerry swept the floor with Bush in the first debate. Bush came off to me as a dumb guy that cannot even articulate.

Being able to articulate is very important in my mind. If you kow what you are talking about, you should be able to speak your mind. If you stumble across every question that is asked to you and change the question half way through, I look down upon that. You do not seem very credible at all. If you do not seem credible, why should I believe you? Especially with all the lying going on now.

[QUOTE] Democrats want a government run country. I want freedom. If you are looking at both sides, look at kerry's background. Nothing credible. I never had difficulty understanding Bush. That is complete bs. Your full of it. Talking about changing the question half way through, that is something kerry does every debate. He is speaking like a trial lawyer and always points at Bush, very disrespectful. My point is democrats want to control your life more then a republican run government. You blew everything out of proportion and not to mention out of context. Again, I would base your decision on the difference between democrats and republicans and what kind of administration you want. Dont get tied up in the emotion and bs.

look at the screenshot tool. it is all por bush anti kerry. i sure would trust them.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA90994DC404482 [/b][/quote]
Have you ever watched the Orielly factor? Sure he may hav a biase but he reports the whole story. I love when he gets mail from democrats accusing things and just spills it in their laps.

You should watch some time... you may learn something.

And you should go to a Micheal Moore convention. It may be a bit biased though. You may learn something ;) .

I went to a democratic caucus to listen to intelligent logical views why people are democratic. I have a difference in opinion and dont believe in hand outs. michael moore convention was a joke. I think there were more people protesting the event then were inside listening to the bs. allot of open seats. It may be a bit biased, dah, do you think so.

Moore is a LOT more biased then Fox news is... Sorry but he only looked at one side. Fox looks at both and then picks the logical winner in each circumstance.

The otherside of the story? You show me how Bush and family don't have financial interests tied in with Saudi Arabia.

look at the screenshot tool. it is all por bush anti kerry. i sure would trust them.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA90994DC404482 [/b][/quote]
It is? Other than the Google ad, point out the anti Kerry/pro Bush shit.

How about YOU show us how they do. Without quoting some obscure propaganda website.

FYI the only reason I posted that Fox news screen shot was because of the google ad. It just seemed kinda funny.

Hey Remy, once again its looking like YOU are the tool. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, politics is a hot topic around here. I'm really not much into politics, but I do want to touch on the shipping of jobs overseas issue.

I know a few years ago there were a many DSM owners in the IT business that are not in the IT business today. The economy soured and jobs were lost. Big companies in the Twin Cities like American Express and Target have shipped thousands of jobs, mostly IT jobs over to India in the past five years. These companies are certainly free to do this, but the government actually gives them tax breaks for it.

This issue affects everyone currently holding any kind of programming, networking, or other computer job. Because these jobs are gone from the Twin Cities market, we actually get paid less, because of the less demand. And for those of you that were once in the IT industry and are now doing something else, this should bother you to.

Granted, the economy did go down the crapper in 2001, and I'm not saying that is a Democrat or Repuplican issue, because its not. But the Bush run government in place now certainly is doing nothing but encourgaging big businesses to ship IT jobs overseas today.

Thankfully I work for a fortune 500 company that sends no IT jobs to India.

later,
Curt

nice come back... :razz2:

I don't know about you, but I attribute the economic plunge to 9/11.

Thing is... most IT jobs that are shipped over are customer service help desk jobs. Which are not the middle to higher end IT jobs out there. Those have to stay here because you deal with the actual hardware and managing of networks and the like.

Thats what Im going to school right now for and Im hoping there will be some jobs out there. Sure it went down but thats also because .com's hit the floor.

I can see jobs that require more phone work or actual programming work being shipped over but not the network admin type jobs out there.

Ok, I've let this thread go on for days to see if ppl would grow up.

The next person to directly bash a member will be banned by me. And the person after that, and so on. I realize politics is a hot topic, but you do not need to directly attack members.
(same thing I posted in the other politic thread)

Thats not entirely true. Yes help desk jobs are an easy one to ship overseas, but I've personally seen entire development projects sent to India. From product analysis to all the development of the software can be done in India. I've seen it.

Networking support jobs can go to. If you can log in at home and support a network, there is no reason someone from Bombay can't do it.

When I first started in the business, I was doing helpdesk work. Its a good starting point. I'd hate to see college grads not even be able to get decent starter jobs.

later,
Curt

Yes, your right. The number one reason the economy took a plunge is because of 9/11. The practice of shipping IT jobs to India started in the late 90s by necessity because of the Y2k scare. Contracting companies were bringing thousands of Indians over here to fix source code for Y2k bugs. Big companies developed relationships with these "offshore" contacting companies. After Y2k, companies started shipping jobs overseas. In recent years it has really exploded. Its only going to get worse if the government doesn't step in. I don't think Bush is going to do anything about it. I'm not even sure if Kerry is going to stop it. But you are always going to have a better chance of a Democrat fixing a problem like that. Its a fix for the little people like us. ;)

later,
Curt

I do not agree with you. What can be done here can easily be done there. Obviously they cannot come to your house but aside from that, it can be accomplished.
Since the "higher" jobs are here, what makes you think that you are going to come strait out of school and get one? There are several people out there that have graduated and been in the field for a few years that are out of jobs and searching for a new field.
I wish you good luck in finding a nice IT job when you get out of school.

As far as the economy, yeah 9-11 killed it. I have not seen Bush set aside some time and help it though. It seems that he is hurting it even more with his view on outsourcing.

Sure you can do things remotely but what about setting up hardware, or dealing with other companies... overseeing things other than just over the phone or through the network.

It cannot all be done remotely.

As for the High end jobs... I mean more 4 year versus 2 year degrees. Help desk jobs are easier to come by because mostly you only some experience or a two year tech degree.

The more experience the better. I hope I get a good job, my brother's in the IT business so I get alot of info onwhats going on lately... and I am currently working in th IT department at my work, so that experience surely helps... but who knows what will happen...

Computers will always be here.