Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I agree. We need to learn from the past (last week) and make the necessary changes. Its what those changes are that we differ on.

I was actually going to bring the Japanese internment camps up in a previous post but decided against it to not stir up a whole new can of worms, but in short, I feel this country did what it had to do to best protect itself. In hindsight it probably was not the best decision as the only convicted Japanese spys were white, but hindsight is 20/20 and it very easily could have gone the opposite direction.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I also dont know how you guys can say all muslims shouldnt be allowed to fight for our country... Im all for fair punishment but you group all of that religion into one category.

It is just like the Japanese camps in WW2, thats a perfect analogy. You cant blame a whole group of similar people for one man or one corrupt groups actions...

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

No need for camps during war. This is how I look at it. Everybody has their view of life, religion, war, etc. But if there is a clear sign of conflict of interest, then some considerations should be made. The FBI admits they knew he was contacting members of al Qaeda, yet because of political correctness, innocent people who were serving this country (you and me) were killed. This is where the "less of two evils" comes into play. I would rather this one individual be inconveniently bothered with questions about his beliefs while in our military, than have 13 people die and 30+ get injured. Common sense goes a long way, too bad it doesn't get practiced that much anymore.

I'm referring to people who think they know what's best for the rest of us, based solely on their financial status and political or religious beliefs. We are "The Last Place of True Freedom" in the modern world. People come here from other countries because of our Constitution. "Because America is Great". But it seems once they get here it turns into "Hey America is cool, but it should be more like my old country". If you are here, you are on American soil, so act like it. I think it's a disgrace to come here and protest our flag while waving your own. It's cool if you are from another country and want to represent your homeland, BUT the American flag should fly above any other country flag on your flag pole.

Funny you should say that, this country was founded by a group of men who had enough of high taxation and the iron clad rule of a king (insert government here) where their freedoms were taken away. Open your eyes and you will see.

Example, Obamas-Pelosi Care has a provision to force you to buy health insurance or pay a fine or go to jail. Their argument is that it's not fair for everybody else to pay for your coverage. But isn't that what is happening? Quote "We are insuring the uninsured". If I choose not to have health care insurance, how does that cost you more? If I'm sick and go to the hospital, the insurance company is not loosing money because they are not paying for my treatment, I am. Read the bill and show me one section that truly improves your health care. It's all about power, money and bureaucracy. Did you know there is a provision that stops you from personally paying for a treatment that is not covered by Obama-Pelosi Care? No, I'm not making it up.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Every country has made mistakes in the past and punished innocent people for what others have done, thats life, and the same thing happens in all forms. Look at how many people are wrongly convicted of crimes because of stereotyping, people just have to get over it and move on.

Muslims shouldn't get offended at an airport when people look at them funny because they have rags on their heads and are speaking a bunch of fucking jibberish. Don't they remember that a group of the same looking people took over a few jets and killed 4000+ innocent people just a number of years ago? Of course people are going to stereotype and discriminate, I mean come on.

The guy who did all the shooting was a single sleeper cell terrorist plain and simple, which just so happens to be the hardest ones to catch. But in this case there were clear signs that he could be up to something and nothing was done. Vicious said it perfectly, nothing was done because god for bid if you accuse a Muslim of being a terrorist or insinuate that he might cause harm to people around him because of his radical beliefs. This politically correct bullshit has to stop or more innocent people are going to die at the hands of these extremists.

I stand firm on my opinion, don't let anymore god damn people into this country, and through attrition you will weed out most of the shit bags that only come here to leech off the system and in rare cases kill people.

And Peter comparing WW2 to what is happening now isn't comparing apples to apples, what is happening now is far more dangerous, there isn't one group or one leader that is getting people to follow his lead, it's the religion and beliefs of one religion that is dangerous. The vastness is way to big to quantify, and you cannot pinpoint who is going to strike next. Look at this shitbag that did all the shooting, he was a soldier for years, he commited to our military knowing that he would someday do what he did. Thats why it is so dangerous, these people are willing to intergrate into society and embed themselves deep, so when they strike their impact really hits home.

Nobody wins on this subject, it will never happen, you are always going to have two sides.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

With all this proof anyone who attempts to claims this wasn't a terrorist attack is clueless.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I can see this was a domestic terrorist act, and I believe military people who only fly their home country's flags not acceptable. That's just stupid.

But how about the millions of Muslim US citizens who fly the US flag in earnest? I also agree we shouldn't allow non-citizens in the military, but the point I argue is that you shouldn't discard them all as terrorists. I hope we have a few Muslim members that will agree with me.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I dissagree with that. We are not desperate for soldiers. Every branch right now has a delayed entry program because there are so many recruits. The military is sending out troops to basic training every Monday. Just my .02 from an enlisted Marine.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I don't think anybody is saying all Muslim are terrorist's; that would be just plain ignorant, I can only speak for myself though. The point I am trying to make is that all Muslims have only their "own" people to blame for the stereotyping that goes on these days, they should not get offended at an Airport if they get questioned regarding their intentions to fly or what have you. If anything they should be pissed off at the people that hijacked Airplanes and killed thousands of people out of nowhere.

Muslim's need to just face reality and admit that right now is not a good time to be a practicing Muslim in the United States, not because all Muslims are terrorist's, but for the mere fact that a stereotype has been formed that they all hate the United States in some shape or form, and that they can integrate into society for years and years and then all of the sudden bam blow up a shopping mall for no reason at all.


I mean shit even serial killers have some form of motive, sex, thrill, adolesent rejection, the list goes on. These "terrorist's" have no motive other than their "god" told them it was a good idea over breakfast.:bf_nonew:

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

So if that is true then why is the military enlisting individuals even before they are a citizen of the United States? That doesn't make sense, if we didn't need soldiers you would think they could be more selective on who they enlist, like people with the name Hassan.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

x2 The MN guard is waaaay over-strength right now, to the point where new recruits are having to go on a 6-8 month waiting list just to ship to basic training.


Not allowing someone into the military because of their name is just plain stupid. Not allowing someone into the military because of their religion is called descrimination. They have been allowing non-citizens join for a long time also.

A non-citizen can enlist in the military. However, federal law prohibits non-citizens from becoming commission or warrant officers.
In order for a non-citizen to enlist in the military, he/she must first be a legal immigrant (with a green card), permamently residing in the United States. It's important to note that the military cannot and will not assist in the immigration process. One must immigrate first, using normal immigration quotas and procedures, and once they've established an address in the United States they can find a recruiter's office and apply for enlistment. Hell, when I was in Iraq, they had a huge ass naturalization ceremony where a few hundred people got their US citizenship.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

The last name comment was a joke, obviously you didn't catch it. However you admit that not letting someone into the military because of their religion/beliefs is discrimination; that conservative outlook on the way our military and country should be run is why 13 people are dead right now and another 40+ are injured. Not to mention what happened on 9/11.

God for fucking bid if we discriminated against a Muslim and told him/her we don't want to take the risk of him/her killing a bunch of people down the road. If it never happened before I could see pulling the discrimination card, but considering the circumstances and past events who gives a fuck if someones feelings get hurt, at least people might not die because of it.

The whole reason they didn't call out this Hassan dude about his talks with a known terrorist is because they didn't want to look like they were discriminating or calling him out because of his religion, and LOOK WHERE THAT GOT THEM!

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Holy crap do I ever agree with this.

And man I cant even read this entire thread. It just turned into the typical racist load that seems to be prevelant on this board.

I know muslims in the military that have NO qualms with killing the terrorist and isurgant scum that are the cause of this war.

MUSLIM DOES NOT = TERRORIST you racist, ignorant effs.

If you wanted to go on that logic then

WHITE MAN = KKK, go hang some black people. Or hate on some Jews, because with your logic towards muslims its the same damn thing.

You all want to just PRETEND that white Christians Extremists arent JUST as bad as Muslim Extremists.

Times like these I'm glad to be a tolerant Agnostic. And by tolerant I mean towards religions, not racist ignorant BS.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

This thread is aweful.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Where did you read that? I re-read the whole thread and couldn't find where somebody said that all Muslims are Terrorist's? Unless somebody edited their post; if not it appears as if you are making shit up in order to attempt to make a point about something that was never said, which last time I checked is 'ignorant'.

Bottom line is this country just needs to re-think some of it's security measures when it comes to whom they let into the military and who they let into this country.

And Brandon you're right, this thread is aweful, it sucks this country has came to these kind of discussions. The worst isn't over by far though the way things are going.

Blizzard - Signing Off :bf_nonew:

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

You're right, there is no direct quote. However, it is easily inferred from several comments. The idea of not allowing any Muslim into our armed forces solely because they are a Muslim and some Muslims are terrorists effectively groups them all together as terrorists.

What you, and others, seem to be failing to understand is that the actions of any subset of a group do not define the entire group and when you knowingly and willfully deny the entire group any of the rights they are given by being a citizen of the United States of America you are discriminating. It's disgusting to think that any of you would want to do this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of profiling because it seems to work. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. However, you can't strip search every Muslim person that goes through the airport, it's not the same thing.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

This thread is going no where. Everyone has their beliefs and its quite apparent nobody is changing their minds. I just hope there are no more deaths due to these terrorist muslims infiltrating our military and I think we can all agree to that.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Interesting chain of events in this thread.

I don't remember anybody saying that all Muslims are terrorist anywhere in this thread?? But you can make of it anything you want.

Let me pose a question:
Since it has been "inferred" that we shouldn't allow Muslims into the military at this time because we are fighting Muslim based terrorist, would you have let die-hard Hitler & Nazi supporters into the U.S. Military during WWII? What about a Registered Communist Russian supporter during the cold war? This guy proclaimed his beliefs out in the open for all to see and nothing was done because of "race", "religion" and "political correctness". He wasn't just a Muslim fighting along side of the U.S Military, he was contacting members of al Qaeda in an effort to do something along the lines of what he did. The FBI knew it and did nothing about it.

The problem here is that this is the first war where an enemy's uniform is the same as their civilian dress and you can't just "spot" the enemy in a crowded room unless he's packing an AK47 in plain site.

Am I for discrimination? Hell NO!! But in a time of war (REMEMBER WE ARE AT WAR) we have to use common sense and take into account that a religious group has targeted innocent American civilians. This is the worst kind of war because it's not just one military against another where the soldiers know who they are fighting on the battle field. And a religion based war is the worst kind because of the radicals who bastardize their religion into something that justifies killing innocent civilians.

Blizzard, let me fix your statement here:
"However you admit that not letting someone into the military because of their religion/beliefs is discrimination; that LIBERAL outlook on the way our military and country should be run is why 13 people are dead right now and another 40+ are injured. Not to mention what happened on 9/11."

RLFebo:
Let me catch you posting anything like "you racist, ignorant effs" again and I will personally ban you from the site permanently! For now it will be a 1 week ban.

It's really a shame we can't have an open discussion as mature adults without somebody's panties getting all wadded up!!!

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

+1,000,000

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

People seem to forget this very simple fact since here most of us sit in our comfy protected lives worrying about protecting some terrorist's feelings while our fellow Americans are getting blown up and shot not only overseas but here on our own soil.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

I dont get why he would be banned for that? There is a lot of racist thoughts in this thread. Its not totally direct blows, but they are there.

I dont agree with the military not doing anything about this dude having ties with terrorism. That doesn't make any sense why they would just let it slide when they had proof he was tied to terrorist activity.

I have muslim friends as well, and Id be proud if they fought for the US. All you people saying muslims shouldnt be allowed to fight for this country, even though they are US citizens, need to get a clue.

Vicious- How does having muslims fighting for us even compare to Nazis fighting for the US back in WW2. That makes no sense at all. Nazisism isnt a religion, neither is communism. You cant compare a religion to political agenda and thought. Thats like saying if all nazis were Christian, we couldnt have any Christians fighting for the US in WW2...

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

There is a lot of bad in this thread but we don't need member bashing to be added to that list. The forum rules are simple.

Viscious' comparison is dead-on accurate. What exactly is the difference between religion and political agenda? Nothing, both are thoughts and beliefs, nothing more.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

No, it's not! You guys keep implying that if you are Muslim you must either be a terrorist or support terrorism. If you are a Nazi you have made a conscious decision to support certain positions on the worthiness of other people. Being a Muslim doesn't not automatically mean you hate all Americans and wish to kill them. There are millions of practicing Muslims who do not support this view and I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of them serving in the US armed forces because they do not agree with the extremist terrorist Muslims and wish to see them dead as much as you or I.

Why is this so hard to understand? Do I need to draw you a Venn diagram?

Also, for any of you who have implied that I am a liberal, you're way off the mark. I'm simply a person who doesn't accept the blanket discrimination and or segregation of anyone because it is morally wrong!

And seriously, RLFebo doesn't deserve to be banned, despite his misuse of the word racist, he's 100% correct. You guys are bigots, plain and simple. Ban me for a week, a year, or life. I don't care; you disgust me.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Haha wow.. the ignorance in this thread is amazing.

Negative political agendas are not the same as a personal religious belief. Unless you are using your religion to fuel war, and in some Muslims cases, this is true. You are grouping all Muslims into one category, and that's wrong.

And Im going to totally agree with Hellomynameis on the racist/ban talk.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Call me names all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself, but if you break religion or political affiliation down into the simplest of terms they're both nothing more than personal (or group) thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

You guys keep saying this but please tell me where one of us has actually said it? As far as I'm concerned all of us have made it very clear that we understand not all muslims are bad people and/or terrorists.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Then why did you guys say they shouldn't be allowed in the military?

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

OK, let me clarify a few things:

RLFebo is banned for good reason. I, nor will any Admin here allow a personal attack on one, any, or all members of this forum for any reason. I don't care if you disagree 100% with a discussion, people (that includes you & me) are entitled to their opinions and should be allowed to say or post them without that type of outburst. As long as I've been a member of this site (which goes back to when it all started originally) it has been an open/free speech forum that allows personal expression pretty much unchecked. But we do have limits.

Do I believe Muslims should be allowed into the military, sure I do, especially if they were born and raised here. And that also comes with an understanding that anybody (not just a Muslim) can enlist for the purpose of hurting our military efforts to help the enemy. Why should we automatically trust that someone who is not a U.S. citizen would 100% be with us instead of trying to hurt us. Just seems too risky for me to allow foreigners into the military for that one reason.

I know that all Muslims are not terrorist or the enemy (and I'm sure most on this forum feel the same way), but there is no clear marker that distinguishes the honest, hard working peaceful Muslims from the ones that want to do what this guy did until it's too late. But in this case the markers were there which makes it that much worse.

Everybody needs to take a deep breath, relax a little here and understand that at a time of war, some things we don't like or think are wrong, happen for the right reason, which is protecting innocent lives and this country.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

As a precaution against the ones who are the extremists. Fair? Not at all, but when a country is at war sometimes you need to take precautions in order to protect the military and citizens. As mentioned earlier in this thread its getting increasingly difficult to determine friend from foe and no matter what actions we take people are going to get hurt and upset, but in my mind this is the lesser of two evils. We're all free to express our own opinions on the matter, but the personal insults and name-calling needs to stop now.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

It is a sad irony on humanity that religions which are supposedly founded on peace are constantly used for propaganda for death and destruction. The cycle of hate continues back and forth as it always has in our history from the dawn of civilization.

Does religion cause violence, or does man use religion as an excuse for violence?

I don't know the answer. Whenever something like this happens I find myself angered by the religious affiliation of the perpetrators. However, I then realize that it is the very anger that I feel towards them that they felt at some point towards a country or religion that has fueled their actions.

From the Crusades to WWII to the Gulf War and Afghanistan; we just keep on killing each other.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Both is the answer to your question. Humans are violent by nature and religion just gives us a reason to hate.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Everyone read this!

So, um...yea. This is a car forum. I understand people are passionate about this, but seriously, you guys all need to calm down. If you are replying to an open-ended statement that someone made, no matter how thought-provoking it is, just remember: this is the Internet! This forum is here for collaboration, learning, and FUN and if you aren't here for that, then GTFO!

This is my first and last post in this thread, carry on.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Ive always wondered what the magical Scheides thought about political topics. haha

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

LOL he is smart and stays out of them.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Dumb question:

How many of those suggesting how the military be ran (exclude certain groups), have actually served in the military, and served with someone that falls into one of these groups that should be excluded?
It's a horrible thing what happened there, lots of innocent lives were taken for no reason. But this event was done by extremeists, and to punish an entire culture based on the events done by extremists, is not right and very much not 'American' (in my opinion, which everyone has their own). I personally can't think of a more honorable and noble approach of trying to earn your citizenship into this country, than by putting your own life on the line for it.

Can I make a poor attempt at making a comparison? Did an innocent life not get taken this summer by someone from the "SC crowd" (sorry couldn't think of a better word) out on University this year late at night? I'm sure the Police in some way feel they're at 'war' with "street-racers" specifically the SC crowd (don't tell me none of you have ever felt like the cops watch you a little closer because of your car). How would you feel if they came down and put sanctions on anyone driving anything that could be lumped into that same crowd, because it's "your people" who are the problem? It's the lesser of the two evils as you put it is it not? So a lot of people get upset because they have now put a sanction on driving anything they consider a SC after dusk, but maybe we saved a life here and there... This is supposed to be a free country. That doesn't mean free to do whatever you want, but free to do what you aught to do and what is right. And what we aught to do and what is right, is to not judge others "by the color of their skin (or religion), but by the content of their character." Again, in my opinion, the day we start excluding groups based on these, is the day this country took a major step backwards.

Don't get me wrong, what happened was horrible, and they obviouslly dropped the ball on this soldier. But to punish an entire group (how many millions of people are we talking here) based on the actions of extremists, in my opinion is wrong. And it doesn't make what happened in Texas right. This guy was obviouslly one of the bad ones who slipped through the cracks somehow, and I hope he gets what he deserves.

OK that's my comment on the whole matter. I'm sure my comments will be picked out one by one by someone and ripped apart, and that's fine because everyone has their opinion. This one is simply mine.

Hasta Luego Muchachos.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

^^^ I agree 100%.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

Totally agree with brandon, and his comparison is pretty good.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

The cops do put sanctions on us down on University in the way of getting pulled over constantly for BS reasons. Like it or not injustice is a way of life.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

To what was said above ^^^.

I'll use your analogy:
We all know the cops look at our cars and lump us into that "group". Why? Because we as a group earned that reputation, plain and simple. If the idiots among us weren't out there running a 1/4 mile between every stop light, or drifting every corner they come to, etc., maybe the police wouldn't have a reason to do what they do to us on a daily basis. It's funny, but everybody who knows me in my home town will tell you I never street race, period. I know people who do and it's their choice to do so. I don't think it's safe and if I took an innocent life over something that stupid I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

So what has happened to lessen our issues with the police, we started policing ourselves. Stopped the street racing and stupid crap to get them off our backs. If somebody gets stupid in a parking lot with their car, we have asked them to leave or run them off. Now the police don't seemed too bothered by us so much anymore. Sure, I still get the look from cops at times, but I don't get harassed.

One thing nobody has brought up yet, but I think is a very good point. What about the men and women who serve beside the Muslim soldiers? How are they handling it? Are they wondering if they should be keeping an eye on the enemy and the Muslims serving with them? Me, I would have that in the back of my mind the whole time I would be fighting along side of them, wondering when I might become their target.

I'll say it again, I'm not a racist or bigot as others have said or implied in this thread, but I am realist, and the reality is that the Muslim community has a problem with how the few are making the many look. Maybe the Muslim community should start policing itself and get rid of the radicals and their radical beliefs towards the white man. That might go a long way with lifting the "stigma" they have at the moment.

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

And I will ask one more time...

Who here that is making comments on how the military is ran, has actually even been in the military making them able to make a knowledgable statement based on personal experience?

I'm done...

Re: Shooting at Fort Hood, TX
 

The great part about America is that those of us who never were in the military are still able to form and express an opinion. The sames goes for every single person who has posted in this thread.