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rick shindley
11-26-2003, 12:13 AM
JET's 1G engine had a major crankwalk issue last summer. It got to be so bad the block and crank were destroyed. It is not common for a 1G engine to develop crankwalk, especially the pre-92.5 engines. The 7-bolt engines with manual transmissions have a relatively high occurence of crankwalk, though. 7-bolt engines with automatic trannies have almost zero cases of crankwalk (I have not heard of one).

Crankwalk is the result of thrust bearing wear in the engine. The thrust bearing (a.k.a. the "center bearing") keeps the crank centered longitudinally so it can't move in and out over time. This is necessary to keep the forces presented by the rods on the crank within tolerance to prevent the crank from breaking.

Automatic trannies present virtually no end force on the crank so the thrust bearing has little to do to keep the crank in place. However, the force used to disengage the clutch in a car with a manual tranny also pushes the crank against the thrust bearing. AN ACT 2600, for example, presents as much as 700 pounds of force at the thrust bearing (stock clutches present about 400 pounds). The increased force ought to prematurely destroy the thrust bearing but the superior oiling system in the early 1G engines seems to stave off the inevitable, though it has no right to!

A thrust bearing will fail if the oil film between it and the crank fails. There is to be no metal-to-metal contact there. How an oil film breaks down is beyond the scope of this post, but suffice it to say that oil that is too thick or too thin for the application can result in thrust bearing failure. Thick oil will shear and leave air gaps where oil is supposed to be. This is especially true in engines that rev beyond their design limits. Added disengaement force from stiff aftermarket clutches only exacerbates the problem. Air gaps result in reduced load braing surface area which allows the two surfaces to move closer together which increases oil shear and the creation of even larger air gaps... runway failure!

Another ugly scenario has been discovered as a source for crankwaalk, although it often ruins the transmission first. On many modded DSMs the tranny has been removed many times. It happens that there are two guides that align the tranny with the block. If one or both of these guides is missing, the tranny can quickly become misalinged with the crank. The result is that the tranny input shaft is caused to wiggle around which leads to loosening of the tranny bolts. When this happens the misaligned tranny creates a continuous load on the thrust bearing.

The guides sometimes just fall out when the engine block is being handled. Sometimes they stay with the tranny, too. I have seen this several times and the results both times ruined the tranny input shaft bearing. I suspect this is the cause of JET's regrettable crankwalk, the subject of much debate and ridicule.

Anyway, before the implemenation of modified automatic trannies in drag cars with big block motors, it was common to have to replace the thrust bearings in those motors after just ten times down the track!

Rick

AJ
11-26-2003, 12:19 AM
I am going to get in this right from the bat! If this turns into another go of the shit from MN DSM list in anyway, I won't pass any thoughts and just delete this. Otherwise lets discuss and help others out who need to undertand this in a cival matter.

Thanks,

Allan

Kracka
11-26-2003, 12:22 AM
I love Shindley.

JET
11-26-2003, 12:34 AM
I will play fair as long as Rick does. I thought we had already gone through this on MN-DSM, but here goes again.

My engine was crankwalked after 7k when I pulled the tranny off to put the Shepherd tranny in. Note that the tranny guides were in place until then. This means that the missing tranny guide had nothing to do with the crank walk.

When I put my Shep tranny in I had weird clutch engagement. I had been having this trouble for a long time and had talked to Rick about possible causes for it. He recommended bleeding my clutch a certain way, that didn't help.

Anyone at the shootout will remember me bleeding my clutch 10+ times trying to get the damn thing decent.

I do not know for sure when the crankwalk started, but I was having shifting problems within a month. I broke it in for 500 miles and had never been to the track.

The main culprit we came up with on MN-DSM was that the block was not align honed after the ARP main studs were put in. After much searching this has happened to many other people.

So, the lesson here is to get your block align honed if you are using ARP main studs. It ended up being a $3500 lesson for me, even though I asked Rick if I needed it and he said no.

TheBlizzard
11-26-2003, 01:42 AM
NABR DSM ARCHIVE (http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002097#000004)

For anyone that is a non believer in align honing when using ARP's here is one of the many many threads on NABR about the subject.

Just go to search and type in align honing and you will see many threads on this subject. Without the procedure being done even a 6 bolt can see out of spec crank movement withing 900 miles of a full rebuild.

And I can personally vouge for Jets car not shifting any differently with a 70,000+ tranny or a brand new Sheppard Racing Tranny. I drove the car just as much as he did and it shifted like shit with both of them. It didn't make any difference when the new tranny went in, it shifted the exact same as the one before it did.

So that would lead me to believe that it was crankwalked long before the tranny was even touched.

Also if you do some searching on the various boards you will see one of the signs of crankwalk is having major shifting problems.

Well there my two cents and that is just my opinion based on what I have read. But I can say one thing, I trust words spoken from the guys that I have recieved my information from though and would follow suit if I had a rebuild done. :jammin:

CRAIG

Kracka
11-26-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by CUSTOMDSM@Nov 26 2003, 02:42 AM
Well there my two sense (you spelled this word wrong) and that is just my opinion based on what I have read. But I can say one thing, I trust words spoken from the guys that I have recieved my information from though and would follow suit if I had a rebuild done. :jammin:

Its too bad than none of the people who have recieved exceptional service and/or work from Shindley post up their every story. Didn't Shindley offer to help tear the engine apart and assist with the rebuilding process?

TheBlizzard
11-26-2003, 04:03 AM
Sorry almighty spelling police it was 1:30am when I wrote that ;) . Anyway, I am pretty sure he told Jet to bring it up there and they would look at it. But then stuff took a turn for the worse, just like AJ described that this thread is not going to turn into. I was there when he talked to Rick on the phone and Rick said that the tranny shouldn't have anything to do with the crankwalk. And then within a couple of days he posted on MNDSM that it was the tranny and the "monster clutch" that caused it. And then all hell broke loose and things got out of control. And with that, all civil communication between them was lost and nothing was going to be done about it.

I can vouge for JETS feeling on the whole subject. My consensus is that he has taken in the fact that he is just going to have to eat this one no matter whos fault it was. Like he said, theres a $3,500 lesson that was learned from this. Just do things yourself and then if something doesn't work out according to planned you don't have anybody to blame but yourself.

But all that is a mute point anyway, like AJ said this should be a educational post so that this doesn't happen to anyone in the future no matter who is doing the rebuild. Thats why I posted the thread to NABR, if you don't trust the information that is on there, who do you trust?

And Chris you are probably right. I am 100% sure that there are far more happy people with Ricks work than that are unhappy. But the only way to be the best at what you do is to admit when you have overlooked something and then learn from it. And if something is being overlooked when rebuilding with ARP's, well then it should be addressed and the proper precautions should be taken so that problems don't occur in the future. Right?

CRAIG

JET
11-26-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by TalonTSiDude@Nov 26 2003, 02:09 AM
Its too bad than none of the people who have recieved exceptional service and/or work from Shindley post up their every story. Didn't Shindley offer to help tear the engine apart and assist with the rebuilding process?
Rick did offer to take the crank out of the block if I took it up there. The next day on MN-DSM he said that there was no way this was his fault. That is the only thing that made me mad. How can you say this is 100% not your fault if you have not even looked at the engine?

During the whole thing I said that Rick does good work on most things. I would probably still take a timing belt change to him if I didn't have time to do it. He does a better job at most things than most people around. I was just pretty amazed that he said he would not stand behind his work before he even looked at the engine.

Kracka
11-26-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by CUSTOMDSM@Nov 26 2003, 05:03 AM
Sorry almighty spelling police it was 1:30am when I wrote that ;)
Just fucking with ya :stick:

TheBlizzard
11-26-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by TalonTSiDude+Nov 26 2003, 09:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TalonTSiDude @ Nov 26 2003, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CUSTOMDSM@Nov 26 2003, 05:03 AM
Sorry almighty spelling police it was 1:30am when I wrote that ;)
Just fucking with ya :stick: [/b][/quote]
I know me too. :lol: