ss auto chrome fmic

[JET]

I bought one of those XS intercoolers off Ebay just because it was so damn cheap. It was huge and looked great from the outside. Nice welds, and fins in between the tubes were good. I looked inside and frowned. Like Mo said, there are no turbulators in some of them. Sure it will flow like hell, but it won't cool for shit if you are making any power. I put it on the shelf and sold it, then bought a Garrett intercooler core.

It isn't rocket science, it is some simple physics. Like Shane said, a pipe will flow like crazy, but won't cool air for shit.

[dumb_ricer]

Swanny, where did you show me any fact in your statement? I have fact's that not one but 2 "shittastic" intercoolers are making more power than anyone else I have seen make on a SC/SCM61 turbo, and 2 more cars with "shittastic" intercoolers that will also make similar power levels.

Also, where did you show me any facts of a spearco or expensive core dropping intake air temps more than any cheaper core of the same size? My real world experience is that intake air temps are cool enough not to detonate at any power levels, make more power on pump and race gas than I have seen from any other similar setup, and all this is from a 175 dollar shipped intercooler. Give it a few weeks, and there will be 2 more cars doing similar things. I have yet to see an ebay core blow apart/fall apart, even under 35lb's or more of boost.

Oh, and I never once said intake air temp didn't mean dick, it means everything. What I am saying is that ebay cores will flow close to the same, cool close to the same, and make very similar amounts of power as a expensive core, unless I am shown otherwise. I have every reason to believe they are similar.

So there is my "real world" experience's with cheap intercoolers, where is your proof?

[niterydr]

It really depends upon what you consider better. Are you looking for a better cooling charge? less pressure drop? better air penetration (less c/d)?


Tube and Fin cores allow air to pass through them easier. This allows for a cooler charge to make it to the radiator (in a fmic application) which will help aid in the prevention of overheating. The reason they do so, is due to design. Where-in a bar and plate (and a plate-tube and fin core) are more squarish, the tube and fin core almost 'points' outwards, thus piercing the air easier.
A tube and fin core makes a 'V' while the bar and plate make an '[]' shape and the plate-tube and fin makes a 'W' shape. Therefore they rank in order.
1) tube and fin
2) plate-tube and fin
3) bar and plate.
This is in the c/d category as well as cooling running engine factor. Granted how the nose of the car is shaped will change the efficiency and mounting method of the intercooler and radiator greatly. The more direct of a path airflow has to the intercooler, the greater the efficiency. To thick of a core can sometimes 'trap' air from getting through it, as well as to drastic of a mounting angle. These problems can be overcome by allowing for more surface area in a trade off of thickness.

Next section...how the air moves through the intercooler.

The faster the air can get through the intercooler core the better. This pretty much sums up 'pressure drop'. When the air has a hard time dividing up through the runners, pressure drop goes up 10 fold. Plate-tube and fin cores are the best in this situation. They allow the air only once choice, that is to split and enter the core. This is usually based on the manfacture, but mostly the plate-tube and fine cores result in the least amount of pressure drop. Second in this category is the bar and plate. They sometimes make the air do a 90 degee split then enter the tubes, but it usually works out. Lastly the tube and fins are the worst. Air usually has to do a 180 when it doesn't grab a tube right away, bounce back against the endtank, and go back at the tube again. Not the greatest idea when it domes to pressure drop. Manafacture methods can sway these results on way of the other, but this is in general.
So.. when it comes to pressure drop.. Plate-tube and fin #1, followed by bar and plate, then tube and fin in a distant third.

Next we actually talk about cooling.

Bar and plate are by far the best at cooling an air charge. They displace more heat then the other two examples widly available. A few changes within the manafacture method will change the outcome, but overall bar and plate is better at getting rid of heat. A properly made tube and fin core can beat out a plate-tube and fin core as well as a bar and plate, but overall most manafactures don't construct them correctly and when they are, the usually cost quite a bit.

Actually I am getting tired of posting so i'll sum it up.
There is no better one. It really comes down to a multitude of options. Bar and plate cores are good overall if constructed properly. Granted they are the most prone to leaks, if the endtanks aren't attached correctly, but overall they are better. Plate-tube and fins are also awesome cores. Tube and fins can be the best, but usually aren't due to the expense of making them correctly.
I didn't even get into the other very very important aspects of intercooling, like endtank design, fin design and shape (louved vs straight...spacing, amount of fins etc)..piping sizes, coupler use..bend radius's..etc.
Most of the time the only hamper on awesome intercooling is money. That is of course if you don't go insane and use to large of an intercooler.
That being said, a few manafactures out there stand out. Also try to find out of the 'pressure drop' advertised is static or dynamic. Static is best defined as 'flow bench aquired' pressure drop numbers where dynamic actually is closer to real life and takes into effect the entire design of the intercooler, from basis (tube and fin vs bar and plate), to fins..etc..
That being said, here are a few manafactures and what I think of them..
Spearco intecoolers.
They are widely available and are actually good stuff. They have realitivly low pressure drop numbers, have a wide range of cores available and in general are a great option.
Btw they are a high efficent pierce fine design on the inside and out. This results in awesome efficiency in the air charge department as well as low pressure drop.
PTE use a bar and plate style core. they are widely available, very economic, and when paired with good endtanks can flow very well. There core choices aren't as vast as spearco, but they do hold there own.
Those are a few of the companies I have done research into, google does wonders, so does being on ALOT of boards.
other companies worth mentioning:
ARE cooling- aluminum radiator and engineering. Australia based company. From what I have gathered, have awesome intercooling making functions but aren't the most economical choise. They can pretty much custom make any core you need, and are a good choice for the 'budgetless' project.

ARE cooling

The greddy cores are also widely used, and I"ll let others chime in on those, as I have very limited research into them as well as experience.
Also this information only applies to air/air applications, air/water is a completly different ball game where you can get over 100% efficiency if you do it right.
Hope it helps, otherwise enjoy the ramble.

Good day to all.


^^^^Copy and paste from one of my posts.
There is just SOME of my experience/knowledge. I have seen plenty of pieced together cars not perform on the dyno to realize that quality parts yield quality results.
If you guys are using the dyno at MAP for comparsion to what cars put down at DB and at LSE put down, you guys really need to join the real world. Better yet, come out to a dyno day and show us what REAL POWER some of these scm61 cars have.
If I could convert to 2wd, I would be more than happy to come pin your guys dyno, give ya a "goal" to shoot for.
Honestly we very rarely build bolt-on turbo dsm's anymore. Most of our clientel has moved towards repair or full garret setups.
Well back to trying to make a water to air setup for my car...cause intercooler efficency doesn't matter ;).

[JET]

Hey dumb ricer, how much is "real power" from an SCM61?

[dumb_ricer]

First, you would not even come close to pinning the dyno, but nice try. Unless you are making over 1100 on you dyno, you won't be pinning MAP's.

And it would definitely be extremely stupid to compare numbers from your Dyno Dynamics AWD dyno, to a 2wd dynojet, trust me, I am in the real world, and I do understand driveline loss and that those dyno's read low compared to a dynojet.

So as of yet, as I suspected, you are all just saying that the expensive cores are better, with no proof except for heresay and "similar setups". I'm not trying to get into it with anyone, just trying to find real world info, and my info is correct as of yet, until proven otherwise.

Oh, and by the way, nice try, but don't try to lump me in with "you guys" at MAPerformance. I am not MAPerformance, I do not work there, I am simply friends with them.

[niterydr]

First, you would not even come close to pinning the dyno, but nice try. Unless you are making over 1100 on you dyno, you won't be pinning MAP's.

And it would definitely be extremely stupid to compare numbers from your Dyno Dynamics AWD dyno, to a 2wd dynojet, trust me, I am in the real world, and I do understand driveline loss and that those dyno's read low compared to a dynojet.

So as of yet, as I suspected, you are all just saying that the expensive cores are better, with no proof except for heresay and "similar setups". I'm not trying to get into it with anyone, just trying to find real world info, and my info is correct as of yet, until proven otherwise.

Oh, and by the way, nice try, but don't try to lump me in with "you guys" at MAPerformance. I am not MAPerformance, I do not work there, I am simply friends with them.

Over 1100awhp on a dyno dynamics to pin a 1000hp capible 2wd dynojet?

I bet I wouldn't pin Map's dyno (this season), but I would be around 850-900whp if I converted to fwd (and I will be going 50/50 split soon so I can just drop my t-case to "drop on by" and dyno.) Next season I bet I have it pinned by 7000rpm.
I know you are a friend of MAP, just can't figure out which one. I am guessing David, but not quiet sure.
I have plenty.... of proof but I really don't feel like showing my hole cards, lets just say I call your "all in" if you want to make a bet :).
Screw this board for tech now, I see its full of "experts" that don't really need to take the advice of the people that have been doing this for way to long.

[dumb_ricer]

It pins at 1500whp, so I doubt it.:)

You do make a huge amount of power, but to damn near double it, I don't think so. And beyond that, I don't think your internals will handle that much. I would probably be questioning the block at that power level.:-p

Oh, and just because I do not post often doesn't mean I don't have the knowledge. Yes, I understand intercooling, yes I understand the advantages of certian ones, but at the end of the day, I don't think there is a significant difference between a core identical to an evotion for 170 dollars and a 600 dollar expensive spearco, pte, greddy, ect... core. I don't have it out for you, and I would never go all in on something I'm not 90 percent sure about. You don't go all in on a draw;) I'm sure you know that. I keep my mind open to new things.

Oh, and I am Nathan. The tall 220LBish kid with a HUGE nose:)

[niterydr]

It pins at 1500whp, so I doubt it.:)

You do make a huge amount of power, but to damn near double it, I don't think so. And beyond that, I don't think your internals will handle that much. I would probably be questioning the block at that power level.:-p

Oh, and just because I do not post often doesn't mean I don't have the knowledge. Yes, I understand intercooling, yes I understand the advantages of certian ones, but at the end of the day, I don't think there is a significant difference between a core identical to an evotion for 170 dollars and a 600 dollar expensive spearco, pte, greddy, ect... core. I don't have it out for you, and I would never go all in on something I'm not 90 percent sure about. You don't go all in on a draw;) I'm sure you know that. I keep my mind open to new things.

Oh, and I am Nathan. The tall 220LBish kid with a HUGE nose:)

Ah I've seen you but never met you.
I haven't used the evotion (aka arrowspeed's house brand) and a few ebay intercoolers but the ones I've seen, they suck major.
it pins at 1500whp? I thought the smaller ones were only good to 1000whp...then I guess I won't pin it, as I figure I'll be around 1100whp (2wd dynojet) next season.
Pauter rods, weisco pistons, upgraded wrist pins, arp hardware, 4 bolt system, forged crank...if it isn't fine time to make custom shit.

[Halon]

You said mine wasperforming well when we dynoed it. Mines an ebay core, bar and plate, with a shit ton of turbulators. Anywho, just get whatever you want to get. Make your own decision, decide what you want, and best of luck to ya!

[niterydr]

You said mine wasperforming well when we dynoed it. Mines an ebay core, bar and plate, with a shit ton of turbulators. Anywho, just get whatever you want to get. Make your own decision, decide what you want, and best of luck to ya!

Yeah yours seem to be doing very well for the price you paid for it, and the boost levels we were running.